Jennifer A. Hayes Oral History Interview

• Jennifer A. Hayes Oral History Interview--1997

  
  

  Corresponds with the text below. Digitized 2025 from cassette and CD.

  Credit / Author:

  NPS-Harry S Truman National Historic Site

  Date created:

  03/06/2025

  Audio Transcript

  See text below

Jennifer Hayes

NPS

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH

JENNIFER HAYES

HSTR INTERVIEW #1997-2

JEFF WADE: Okay, it is Thursday, May 22, 1997. I’m Jeff Wade, W-A-D-E, park ranger at Harry S Truman National Historic Site. We’re interviewing Jennifer Hayes, secretary at Harry S Truman National Historic Site. The audio technician is Mark Robertson, who is also a park ranger, and we are at 605 West Truman Road, known as the George Wallace house. So, Jenny, do you want to spell your name for the record?

JENNIFER HAYES: Okay. It’s Jennifer, J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R, A, the middle initial, Hayes, H-A-Y-E-S.

WADE: Okay, how long have you worked here?

HAYES: Thirteen years.

WADE: Thirteen years? Tell us something about yourself before you came here, like where were you raised?

HAYES: Okay. I was raised in Kansas City, Missouri, until the age of eleven. My folks bought a home in Independence in one of the new subdivisions, and I continued my education in the Independence school district. The schools that I attended were Palmer Junior High for my junior high, and then Truman High School for high school, and I graduated in 1972.

I got married and I had some children, and we had bought a house down here on Truman Road. And being familiar with the area here, it brought back a lot of memories. We had moved to the country and come back, and raised our children here a little bit, and aspired to get back into the government again. I was working for the government, oh, from 1978 through ’81, and that was for the Marine Corps, and I just decided to get my 171s ready and I started looking, and called the Truman Library and they put me in touch with Joan Sanders, our admin. tech. She said that they were doing all the staffing up at this time and to come on in and bring my application in. So I went up to the library and met Norm Reigle, our superintendent, and Joan Sanders. He had a small interview with me, and it looked like I might get the position. Later, I think it was probably a week, within the week, I received a call that they wanted me to come on in and talk with me again. Norm then said that he’d like me to start for them, and I was excited because it was a new agency, somebody I’d never worked for, plus it was for Mr. Truman, and that was just a real thrill because I was from the area. So that was kind of fun.

WADE: What did you do for the Marine Corps?

HAYES: I did all the work for the Officer Selection Office, and it was located down in Kansas City, Missouri, recruited and inducted men and women into the Officer Corps. It was an exciting job. I liked it. I was the only civilian there. There were two different offices, the officers office and the main recruiting office in the same building, and I took care of both of them.

WADE: It was clerical work [unintelligible]?

HAYES: A clerical position with the government. It was my first government position. I learned a lot from the military atmosphere. I don’t think I’d want to join the military, but I did learn a lot there and enjoyed my work there.

WADE: So what year was it then that you were hired for the National Park Service? What year are we talking about?

HAYES: Nineteen eighty-four.

WADE: Nineteen eighty-four?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: There was a gap of time though, as I understand it, between when you left the Marine Corps?

HAYES: Yes. I had my last child and I stayed home with him for a couple years.
WADE: When you then applied, then you were currently living in Independence at the time, though?

HAYES: No, I was living in the country.

WADE: Okay, so let me make sure I’ve got the chronology as far as where you were living right. You graduated from high school in Independence, then you got married.

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Tell me exactly where you went from there.

HAYES: Oh, well, there’s a lot of places, but I’ve mainly just stayed in the Missouri area. That was my first marriage. But then I found my second husband, and we had a child together and I went to work for the government and we lived in Independence, for the most part, again, and then bought our first home in Independence.

WADE: Okay, so in ’84, though, you were not living in Independence?

HAYES: Yes, in the Englewood area of Independence.

WADE: Okay. What did you know about the National Park Service when you applied for this job? Let me ask two questions. How did you happen to call the Truman Library?

HAYES: Well, it’s kind of strange because we had just bought this home, which is four blocks west of the Truman home, on Truman Road, and I felt such a close kinship to the area because I had gone to school here and just thought, Wow. I knew that Mrs. Truman had died, and had seen maybe a couple things in the paper that the government had acquired the home, and I knew that they’d probably be staffing up within the year and open the home for tours. I really didn’t know anything about the Park Service, just took a chance and called the library. And another thing it was close to home, and I thought, Wow, wouldn’t that be wonderful to get to work a few blocks from home and have a good job to boot, for something that’s really wonderful, to work for a President. And I was just real excited.

WADE: So where was this house that you bought? You say a few blocks west?

HAYES: Yes, we bought a home at 1111 West Truman. It was two-story, it was built in 1918, and it was a nice home, but not a very good home for raising small children around; as far as a playground or anywhere for them to go outside. That was one of the reasons that we sold the home and moved to the country.

WADE: Was Truman Road a heavily traveled road at the time?

HAYES: It’s a heavily traveled road, yes.

WADE: So in ’84 when you applied, that’s were you were living?

HAYES: Yes, we were living on Truman Road.

WADE: Okay. So when you called the Truman Library, at that point you didn’t . . . it sounds as if you didn’t realize the National Park Service would be the one who would actually have the home.

HAYES: Sure didn’t. Had no idea. The only thing I knew was that the government had acquired the home, and I wanted back into the government as a civilian employee, and it just sounded just like a dream come true. If I could get a job with the National Park Service and work for Mr. Truman, that was just something that was just . . . I couldn’t believe, you know, if I could ever do that. And I didn’t know positions were open, or what kind of a staff they would even have, what kind of operation they were going to do, or anything. But I just happened to luck into the situation, walked in at the right time. The people that were already working for the park were just an excellent group and taught me a lot about the Park Service.

WADE: Was there an advertised position that you responded to, or was this just a complete shot in the dark?

HAYES: No, it’s really a shot in the dark. And it was really strange, it was just kind of the desire of my heart. I had thought when I moved back to Independence and bought a home here, I said, “Boy, it would sure be nice to work at the Truman home. I just know . . .” You know, because I knew that Bess was ill and I knew that the government would probably take the home and make it a site. I don’t know why, but I just aspired to put in an application for the site when I learned of the staffing. And the only reason I learned was because I called the Truman Library and they said, “Oh, they’re staffing up right now.” And I said, “You’re kidding?” They said, “No, let me put you through to Norm Reigle.” And I said, “Great!”

WADE: So the interview was at the Truman Library?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Okay, and Norm Reigle, how does he spell his last name?

HAYES: R-E-I-G-L-E.

WADE: Okay, and you said there was another person, Joan Sanders, there?

HAYES: Joan Sanders was our admin. tech.

WADE: All right, Norm Reigle was the superintendent, is that right?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Why did they interview you at the Truman Library?

HAYES: That was their temporary office. They had one room, and Dr. [Benedict K.] Zobrist was gracious enough to let them work in his building there, in the National Archives building. They were just a great group of people to work with, Ben Zobrist and the secretary that was in the office at the time, Vicky Alexander, their administrative manager, just a super bunch of people. They helped us tremendously, and in return we did things to help their organization too.

WADE: Dr. Zobrist was the director of the library at that time?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: So what was your official position that you were hired for?

HAYES: Secretary.

WADE: That’s your title, secretary?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Other than the individuals that you met, what was your initial impression of the National Park Service?

HAYES: I was just in awe. I had never been to a national park, and it was exciting to think that we were going to open Mr. Truman’s home to the public within just a month. We were mandated to do so, and we had a lot of things to accomplish before we could even open the door. But it had to be done. And it was just a real exciting adventure. Superintendent Reigle was just a great person to work with. For a small staff . . . I was used to working for people that are kind of cold [chuckling] and not caring individuals. But I found with all the people in the Park Service, even back then in the very early days, that they all had a great sensitivity for what they did in the Park Service. I just had a great feeling from the way this group worked together.

WADE: You said the house was supposed to open in a month? Tell me more about exactly what time of the year you showed up and what time of the year the house was supposed to open, and what took place during that month.

HAYES: Okay. I EOD’d, which means entered on duty, April 1, 1984, which technically was a Sunday, so I officially came on board April 2nd, Monday morning. And unfortunately, the headquarters building that we were going to move into that week had burned down Sunday afternoon. I believe it was in the afternoon. I’m not sure what time of day it was.

WADE: The day you were supposed to start?

HAYES: Yeah, the day that we were supposed to start moving all of our equipment and gear into this new building, which was a historic structure itself in the Independence District, some gentlemen were working with heat guns, I believe, and started a fire and that building burned to the ground. A very sad situation. We had nowhere to go, and we knew we couldn’t accomplish what we had to do in a one-room office in the Truman Library. We had good contacts because of our ranger in charge who was there before Norm Reigle, Tom Richter, and good contacts with the city of Independence. The mayor was gracious enough to invite us to put our offices in the old Firehouse Station No. 1 at 223 North Main. So we had a lot of work to do, and everybody chipped in and we got everything set up.

WADE: Where was the building that burned?

HAYES: I have a problem remembering the exact address, but it was on Maple Street block, just, oh, probably . . . I’m trying to think. Probably a block west of the Truman home, on Maple. [It was at 815 West Maple.]

WADE: Near the intersection of Maple and Union, in that area?

HAYES: Yeah.

WADE: And tell me something about that building. Did you actually see it then?

HAYES: Yes, Norm had taken me in there to show me this place even before I started on duty. It was an old funeral home, evidently, and I believe it was two-story. There were just ornate wood doors, there were fireplaces in each room. They had a grand entrance, and of course the doors were large enough, if you can imagine, to accompany [accommodate] what it was built for. So we had plenty of room to get in and out with the furniture and such, and it was practically ready. It was a beautiful building, really beautiful, and it was going to work out fine. We were going to have administrative offices there, superintendent’s office, and use it for a visitor comfort area too. That was what we had kind of planned. But it just all fell through.

WADE: Was there equipment in there when it burned, also, this house?

HAYES: No, I don’t believe we had. We didn’t have anything in it yet.

WADE: At that particular time, had any decisions been made as to how the tour groups going to the home would be managed, as far as ticket distribution and things like that? Do you remember?

HAYES: I’m thinking that that had been finalized. The policy had been finalized for the structure of the interpretive tours, and we were in the process of building our ranger crew and our interpretive prospectus and trying to get things ready for the opening day, which was May 12th. I believe it was all set up, because Norm Reigle had come in in November of ’83, and he had a few people already on board and he had ideas of how he wanted things done.

WADE: Did they intend to distribute tickets from the funeral home then?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Were all park operations supposed to take place out of that funeral home?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: This may have been before you came. Do you have any recollection of the Park Service contemplating buying 224 North Delaware, the Secret Service house, to use as a base of operations?

HAYES: There was some talk of that, but I don’t recall what stopped that. I believe it was a privately owned home and it just wasn’t available at the time, from what I remember.

WADE: How would you compare what you would have expected the operation to be like, as far as efficiency and so forth, from the funeral home, with the way it is from the fire station? Good or bad. What do you think the pluses and minuses would have been?

HAYES: It would have been better. And the reason why I say that is because of the locality.

WADE: Let me make sure I understand. You think it would be better if it were in the funeral home?

HAYES: I believe it would have, because several of the homes on that block area had already been razed to accommodate a local church here in Independence. They were building and making parking lots and all kinds of things, and I think that if we had been able to move into that building we could have saved a little bit of the district, as far as what was already there with structures. And also it would have been closer to the home itself in order for a closer operation. We probably wouldn’t have ever had to have a shuttle bus, because it was within a block, block and a half distance from the homesite. And I believe there would have been more parking available on that particular street and in those block areas because, like I said, several of the homes were already gone. I just really think it would have been better. But then you think about where our ticket center is now, and it helps the whole community, the whole square community. So it’s kind of a tie. But in actuality, I wish we did have a building closer to the site. It would aid not only daily operation of the home but also make for better security of the site, as far as protection, to have someone closer.

WADE: I want to ask you about the shuttle bus in a second, but before I get to that, let me go back for a second. Basically, it sounds like mostly from age eleven through . . . you graduated from high school, you did live in Independence. Do you have any personal remembrances of Harry Truman in any way during that time? Did you ever see him?

HAYES: Yes. Yes, I sure did. When I first moved to Independence, I ended up going to a parochial school which was in the Kansas City, Missouri, area, but it was considered Independence school district. My folks decided to go ahead and enroll me in the public school out here in Independence. As a result, I kind of began learning more about Mr. Truman and what this town was about as I went through my educational years. At Palmer Junior High, there were many occasions when Mr. Truman had visitors, VIPs come visit him to the site. And I still don’t know to this day how we were able to do this, but somehow or other the principal of Palmer Junior High would get the word to bring all the children down. And they would file those children out of their classrooms, I don’t care what time of the day it was, and we’d all walk down here to 219 North Delaware, outside the fence, and get to see Mr. Truman when he greeted his guests—I believe some of the students even got to say a few words to him a time or two—and watched the activities as they happened out in the front yard, and then we all were able to go back to school. I thought it was a real treat. I couldn’t believe they let us do that. I don’t know how they did it.
WADE: Just for the record, Palmer Junior High is on Pleasant Street, just one block to the east of the Truman home, so a relatively short walk. How many kids are we talking about usually, do you know?

HAYES: Classrooms.

WADE: Classroom size?

HAYES: Several classrooms.

WADE: Who were some of the VIPs that you saw?

HAYES: Let’s see, Hubert Humphrey. I remember seeing him.

WADE: Do you remember the years on these, too?

HAYES: No, let me think. The late ’60s, that’s all. A couple other guests I believe we got to go down and see while I was attending Palmer. I don’t recall who they were.

WADE: Do you recall any current Presidents, Lyndon Johnson, for instance, during that time?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: So you apparently were able to get relatively close to President Truman? Did he come out onto the sidewalk?

HAYES: From what I could tell, he would go to the front gate of the Truman home. And then there was always a lot of media around when they did that type of thing, and so we really couldn’t get real close to the front part of the home there, the front yard. But Harry was real friendly, and he would wave to the kids and say hi. And everybody was just so excited: “Gosh, you know, it’s the President!” But it was exciting, it really was, and it was a real thrill.

WADE: What was the atmosphere in the whole town like during those visits?

HAYES: There seemed to be quite a turnout when things like that happened down here. I mean, it was not only media but it looked like there was just everybody in the neighborhood, and probably the community. I’m not sure. As a child, I really wouldn’t have known anybody, but it just looked like a great turnout of people whenever he came out and met with people.

WADE: A big deal in town, right?

HAYES: Yeah, it was.

WADE: When were you first in the Truman home yourself then?

HAYES: The first time I ever went in the home was with Norm Reigle.

WADE: And it was after you had been hired, or . . . ?

HAYES: I think it was right before.

WADE: Right before?

HAYES: Yes, because he took me on a tour of the home and a tour of where we were going to have our offices on Maple Street. He was excited, and I was excited because I knew what was going to happen: I was going to get to work for this group of people and learn a lot about the Park Service and what they’re all about, and learn about Mr. Truman, which a lot of people in this area would never ever have the opportunity to do.

WADE: You said this was before you were officially hired. Was this standard procedure for Norm to take prospective employees to these different sites, or was this something special for you because it seemed to be pretty obvious that you would be the one?

HAYES: I would gather that’s probably what he did with the people that he knew he was going to hire for staff, because he wanted you to get the feel of what you were going to be doing.

WADE: Tell me about your first visit to the Truman home. What did you think, what parts of the house did you see, and so forth? What was it like?

HAYES: Oh, it was just like walking into somebody’s house that had just went out to go to the store to come back. I mean, everything was there, not only Harry’s things but Bess’s things, and from just a book on the table to dishes and little decorative things on the fireplaces. It just looked like someone’s average home that they had grown up in and lived in. It was just really strange to walk into a President’s home and for it to be so down-to-earth. That’s what really takes you aback when you walk in.

WADE: Did you get to see the whole house? Did you go upstairs?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Margaret Truman was here off and on, I know, during the early days of the park, especially, I believe, as I recall, the year before it officially opened. Have you ever met her?

HAYES: Yes, I have met her.

WADE: How many times have you met her, do you know?

HAYES: Oh, probably several times in the first few years, because she would come in . . . She came in, of course, for the dedication ceremonies. I never really got to talk with Margaret, but I had met her and corresponded with her and spoke with her on the phone, and seemed to be a gracious lady. When Margaret called everything stopped, [chuckling] and we took care of business.

WADE: You do answer the phones as part of your regular duties, right?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Just tell me your impressions of Margaret’s relations with the various superintendents the park has had. How would it happen? She would call up. What would she say? Would she say, “This is Mrs. Daniel,” or just what?

HAYES: She would say, “May I speak to Mr. Reigle?”

WADE: Would she tell you who she was?

HAYES: No.

WADE: Did you know who she was?

HAYES: Not at first. And then when I would ask, she would say, “Well, this is Margaret Daniel.” And I’d say, “Just one moment.” As we got to know her a little bit better, she would ask for Norm at times. And something that Norm and I had discovered, when we corresponded with her and she would send a note back to the park, it was kind of funny how she would sign her notes—not sincerely or best regards or something, but it would kind of indicate her mood of thought, of how she was feeling about something, how she signed or how she said the end of her letter or her note, how she felt about what was happening at that time, what she was discussing or what was going on. And there were times when she wasn’t too happy about some things maybe, or . . . But for the most part, we worked well with Margaret. It was a combined effort. With our regional director in Omaha and our cultural resources team up in that office, as well as our curator and our staff here, we built a good working relationship with Margaret. And I believe she had high regard for Norm.

WADE: Give me some examples of things that she liked and things she didn’t, and how would she finish those letters based on her mood?

HAYES: I wish I had some examples with me, but Kindest regards was one of her last . . . one of her little things that she would put. But if she wasn’t very happy about something, she wouldn’t put anything. She’d just sign it Margaret. I’d have to look them up and take a look at them again. But we kind of noticed her mood as she wrote. And we’ve got them all. We’ve got all the little notes and cards and things that she sent.

WADE: So she would sign it Margaret, or Mrs. Daniel?

HAYES: Well, Mrs. Daniel.

MARK ROBERTSON: I guess we need to take a break.

HAYES: I wish I had those with me.

WADE: Yeah, actually that would be very, very interesting. It’s interesting. I’ve kind of got this mapped out, but the things you say . . .

ROBERTSON: That was good, though. I’m enjoying it.

WADE: That was really interesting.

ROBERTSON: It was. I learned a lot. That’s great.

HAYES: I didn’t have much prep time for this at all.

ROBERTSON: That’s better. I think that’s better.

HAYES: It’s just kind of off-the-cuff, because I learned of this Thursday at four o’clock.

ROBERTSON: That’s almost better.

WADE: You learned it before I did. [chuckling]

HAYES: No, it was Friday at four o’clock. Yeah! And then I thought, Gosh, what am I going to do?

ROBERTSON: You can over-prepare for something like that. You’re just [unintelligible].

WADE: Well, that’s it, see. That’s the whole point of this. See, a lot this stuff that I’m asking you, dates and stuff, hell, we can look that up. That’s not why we’re . . .

HAYES: Yeah, we have chronological things at the office, but . . .

WADE: Yeah. That’s not what we want to know. [tape turned off]

HAYES: . . . maybe even you guys as interpreters. But as far as the management team, I just don’t feel like it’s there anymore. I have never spoke to Larry Hackman, HSTL. I may have said a few words to him on the phone, but he has never ever had a personable conversation with me. I know he has maybe with Ken, but Ben was just a totally different guy.

WADE: I just read his oral history [unintelligible].

HAYES: Oh, I’d like to read that.

WADE: He sounded like he was a pretty nice guy.

HAYES: I’ll bet that would be good.

WADE: He sounded like he thought a lot like the Park Service was thinking at the time, or a sincere desire to work as closely [unintelligible].

HAYES: He sure did. Because of Harry.

WADE: Yeah. Yeah, well, he had a personal remembrance.

HAYES: It wasn’t because of any personal gain or anything, it was because of him.

WADE: He had a memory of the man himself.

HAYES: Oh yes.

WADE: See, that’s something we’ll never have.

HAYES: That’s a big, big difference.

WADE: Okay, during the little break right there you just said something I thought was interesting. You were commenting that you think there’s been changes, especially with the administration of the library, as far as how well they might work with the Park Service. But you made an interesting comment just a minute ago, I think, about personal remembrances of Harry Truman possibly making a difference. Would you mind repeating that [unintelligible]?

HAYES: Well, I just happened to think about how close we were in a working relationship with the Truman Library, and that was while Dr. Ben Zobrist was the head of that agency there. We had such a good rapport with Dr. Zobrist, and his team as well, it was just like . . . It wasn’t for any personal gain or anything. I mean, their interest was sincere, as was ours for the Park Service, because we were given a treasure. And I think that’s the way the library staff at that time felt, that we had the treasure, and they had a few of the items that used to be in that home, and that was their little treasure chest. But we had the best, because we had something that we would try to keep forever. I mean, this was just like . . . You can keep a piece of paper in a library for ever and ever, but to actually have someone’s home, with over forty thousand artifacts, from buttons to books to the bed that Harry took a nap on, and all his ties and things like this, just real personal items. I really felt that there was a more sensitive interest from the library in the early years of the park, and I don’t think it’s there anymore. And one main reason is because, I believe, [Ben] genuinely felt very close to Harry and his wife, and I think that made all the difference in the world in how we were able to set up this operation and build a good relationship with the community and with people that were on the square area so that we could get along.

WADE: You just said that Harry felt close to Harry.

HAYES: Oh, that Ben felt close to Harry. I’m sorry.

WADE: The director.

HAYES: The director. I’m sorry, I’m kind of informal. But the director of the library, Dr. Zobrist, had a close kinship with Harry and Bess. He worked with them on a daily basis and he knew them very well.

ROBERTSON: Which no future director will be able to claim.

HAYES: That’s right, never.

WADE: Well, let’s go back and talk about Margaret Truman just a little more. You’ve kind of done it to a certain extent already, but tell me more about how you would describe her relationship with the National Park Service, or this particular . . . well just in general, and this park in particular, and how that may have changed over the years, if it has.

HAYES: Margaret was leery of anyone coming into her family’s home. She didn’t like it. We had to prove to her that we would take great care of her father and mother’s things, and their home, and not exploit them in any way. I don’t know, there could be a better word for that, but if you can imagine the only child in a family, who was doted upon and just had a great mom and dad and a great family, and no longer have her parents, and then to have to hand this over to strangers. She had no idea what we were about, as far as the Park Service, and what we would even attempt to do or interpret about the family or anything. So we had to build a relationship with Margaret so that she would be able to trust us, and I believe Norm did that. I really do.
We don’t hear from her hardly ever now, but we still acknowledge her birthday. And we do get a card back from her every time, and she puts a short note in it saying thank you to the staff for thinking of her. But as far as actually calling the park and talking with anybody here, it’s been a long time since she’s done that.

WADE: Why do you think that is?

HAYES: It could be she has not really gotten to know the new managers, which would be the new superintendents. But I also think that she’s not afraid to leave us in charge of her family’s home. I think she has the confidence that we will take care of it in the best way that we have the knowledge to do, and we’ve proven it to her over and over, and I think that she feels that we’re very capable people. And I think that that’s probably like the old rule says . . . something like: “If you don’t hear from me, you know everything’s fine.” But when you get a call from Margaret . . . You know something’s wrong if you really get a call from Margaret. I mean, she’s just not the type to call and say, “How are you?” or “What’s going on?” I think she has a lot of confidence in the Park Service. She was pleased that we received the farm and that we’re interpreting that. But as far as really being in contact with Margaret anymore, we really don’t.

WADE: Have we ever approached her for advice, that you recall?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Let me ask this another way. You as the secretary would draft copies of these letters so you would know what letters have been sent. Tell us about some of the situations where we’ve had to ask . . . first, for advice.

HAYES: A couple different issues probably that I’ve seen would be . . . One would be sales items that we would possibly sell in our Truman ticket center up there on Main Street. And then the other item would probably be a discussion of her belongings in the home, things that she might want to come get, maybe a rug or something that meant a lot to her, or a discussion of a description or a date when purchased of an item that was given to her parents as a gift or . . . But we would send correspondence to her in those regards, and also tell her from time to time what was going on with the park, and keep her advised of new legislation efforts that we were trying to accomplish to keep the Truman family compound together or try to keep the interpretation of the district along with the site, so that she would know that we’re really working to keep the family home the way it should be. That’s probably about all.

WADE: When she sends letters to the park, do you open them or do they go directly to the superintendent?

HAYES: I open them.

WADE: So you’ve read her correspondence then?

HAYES: Yes, I have.

WADE: As far as use or disposal or whatever of her . . . whatever objects in the house, can you give me some examples of what the correspondence might have involved in those situations? Anything you can think of?

HAYES: Well, it’s a sensitive issue, mainly because everything in that house is really hers. It belongs to the government, but she has a say-so on her family’s belongings. But I can’t really recall what item might have been discussed. I’m trying to think, maybe a chair or something in one of the rooms, and maybe some furniture that was in Aunt May’s house that she was interested in that had belonged to her parents. But other than that, I don’t recall any specific item, piece of furniture. I’d have to probably look in the files.

WADE: Do you recall a situation when she wanted to donate a cane for an auction?

HAYES: No, I don’t.

WADE: Do you have any recollection of the situation with the Chrysler in the garage, as far as how the Park Service ultimately ended up with it?

HAYES: No, I don’t. That would probably have all been worked out through Steve Harrison, who was our curator, and of course the superintendent, Mr. Reigle, and GSA.

[End Tape 1, Side A - Begin Tape 1, Side B]

HAYES: . . . GSA, I assume. I wasn’t involved in it. Like I said, I wasn’t really involved in a lot of the decision-making of the park because I wasn’t a division chief or anything like that. But we did have meetings, we did have staff meetings, and discussed different things. And, of course . . . [tape turned off]

WADE: . . . the objects?

HAYES: I remember she was fine about it. I don’t recall her ever really having a problem with discussing anything in the home. It was hard for her to discuss anything about the house, I know that, because it bothered her a lot. And that’s why she doesn’t come back here very much, is my understanding, because it really hurts to go into the home. She just really misses her mom and dad, I would say. But I believe she comes back every other year for the Bess Wallace Truman Memorial Award ceremony that the city of Independence, or what is it, Junior Service League or somebody, hosts or sponsors, and she does seem to come back for that. She really never had a problem discussing anything with Norm Reigle because he built the friendship with her, and trust, and I think she felt confident about it, about how he handled things and managed the park.

WADE: Tell me about some of these possible sales items that you’ve had.

HAYES: Oh, well, one time we were approached about a tie, and for some reason or other they were going to be ties with . . . I don’t recall if they were going to have his picture on them, or if they were just Harry Truman on them, or what it was supposed to be, but we had written her some correspondence about that particular item for a possible sales item in the ticket center. I think that was during our second superintendency time period, and she sent back something that said to the effect that no, but almost hell no, you know. Pardon my language. She was blunt. [chuckling] And we appreciated that. But anyway, that was just one example of something we might have asked her about. But very seldom, probably maybe two or three things at the most that we have asked her about, as far as selling items down there.
But I think the main theme of the ticket center was to enhance the man, Mr. Truman, and sell a few items related to National Park Service, to inform people when they did visit the park, so that they could go on and see other sites in the park system. But we were not going to be like a gift center, and that was the policy that Norm had decided, unanimous among the staff, that we didn’t want a lot of little trinkets and things for sale. We wanted to keep it . . . how he would say, a class act, and that’s what we have tried to do.

WADE: It sounds like you’re saying Margaret has . . . one of her concerns is that we interpret her parents with dignity.

HAYES: That’s correct.

WADE: Our second superintendency, as you said, what years are we talking about?

HAYES: Nineteen ninety through nineteen ninety-five. We had a gentleman come on board, Ronald Mack. A little different style of management. He had tried to build a little bit of rapport with Margaret, accomplished a little bit. I cannot say that it was near what Norm had with Margaret, as far as a working relationship at all, but he did try, and took care of business to the best that he could.

WADE: You said there were two or three items mentioned for possible sale. Do you recall them? You mentioned one. Can you think of what the other two might be?

HAYES: That we actually asked Margaret about, that I really remember, would just have been the ties.

WADE: Were you in on any of the correspondence with Margaret during the negotiations with HBO about the filming of the Truman movie?

HAYES: Yes, I was.

WADE: Can you tell me some things about that? Well, first of all, let’s talk about the year and who was superintendent.

HAYES: Well, the HBO request was within, I believe, forty-eight hours of the new man who came on board March of ’95, who is our current superintendent, Ken Apschnikat.

WADE: You’d better spell that one.

HAYES: And his last name is spelled A-P-S-C-H-N-I-K-A-T. And I really felt for him. [chuckling] When he first came on board, he had to make a decision about a filming crew who was rather pushy and wanted to have their way with filming some inside interior shots of the house on Delaware. And we didn’t do that a whole lot. If we did, it was just a rare occasion, like maybe the Smithsonian or something like that. But anyway, I guess our regional director had even spoke to Margaret about that particular request, and Ken talked to her about it—I believe, I’m not for sure on that—but the answer was no on the request for filming. I later found out that that company wanted to switch historic furnishings in the home to accommodate their little scenes. There was talk about them tearing a section of the fence out around the house, and of course that was a definite no. So it didn’t happen.

WADE: A definite no on both?

HAYES: On filming. On anything from them. It just wasn’t going to be done.

WADE: I mean, a no from not only the National Park Service, but Margaret herself didn’t approve of those things?

HAYES: That’s correct.

WADE: Do you recall having to call Margaret to tell her that the house had caught on fire during the 1985 renovation? Were you in on correspondence in that situation?

HAYES: Yes, I was. But the way we handled things when Norm was there, if anything like that ever happened, you know, whether it was a structure problem or something just came of an emergency nature, Margaret was always informed. But when that happened . . . I mean immediately. But when that happened, Norm handled it, with finesse as usual, and he took care of the situation, calmed her down. The doors would shut [chuckling] and he would be on the line with Margaret, comforting and assuring her that everything was just fine and we had the situation at hand—in control you know, we were taking care of the house and everything was all right.

WADE: So it sounds as if you’re saying that as far as most dealings with Margaret of any type of emergency situation, the superintendent has usually handled that by a telephone call, right?

HAYES: That’s correct. And he felt like he could. He could just call her directly and speak with her about anything, which he did. He never hesitated.

WADE: Norm?

HAYES: Norm did not ever hesitate to talk to Margaret if the situation [arose].

WADE: I understand that Ken has called her, too, at least for the HBO thing.

HAYES: I believe he has, yes. Yes, he has.

WADE: Do you recall any occasions when Ron Mack had to call her?

HAYES: I’m sure he was on the phone with Margaret in the beginning of his superintendency a few times, due to something that happened just days before he came on board as a superintendent. And it was a real highly sensitive issue, and it was about removal of items, artifacts, out of the George Wallace home. I don’t recall if there was anything to be removed from the Truman home on Delaware. I’d have to go back and look at that. But yes, he did definitely speak with her, I’m sure.

WADE: Any correspondence over that, as far as letters that you might have seen?

HAYES: No, I don’t think so.

WADE: Just for the record, tell me a little more, just very briefly, what is the situation that we’re talking about here?

HAYES: There were some items that were in the George Wallace home when Margaret’s Aunt May lived in here, and she wanted to try and acquire those back. I’m not sure if they were actual items that were her parents’ or if they had been given to Aunt May by Harry or Bess or what, but anyway they were family artifacts, family pieces that she wanted back. It was kind of a lengthy list, come to think of it, but I don’t recall exactly what was on the list.

WADE: Objects that were in the George Wallace house that may have originally come from the Truman home? Is that what you’re saying?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: And the Park Service was hoping to get some of them back, but Margaret wanted them for herself?

HAYES: Maybe. Like I said, I am not real sure of what all came down. The end result was that Margaret was able to come in and work with the curator here at the time and do what she wanted to do with some pieces of furniture and such that belonged to the family.

WADE: Do you remember Margaret . . . You were at the dedication ceremony for the park, is that right?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Just tell me about that in general. Where was it? What was that like?

HAYES: We had a staging area at the Truman Library, and had a large list of people we invited to that ceremony, including all the family members in the area and across the United States that were interested in coming, Truman family members, as well as congressional representatives and National Park Service representatives. It took place on May 12th, and that was to be the opening day for Truman home tours, and thus we began our operation.

WADE: Since you’ve been here . . . Well, I know at one point President [Ronald] Reagan was considering a visit. Do you have any recollections of that, what was involved, as far as advance Secret Service work, so forth?

HAYES: We had gotten some word that President Reagan was going to come into the Independence Square area, and we were hopeful that he would want to visit the Truman home. The Secret Service had come in . . . They had come into the square area, I think it was two days before his visit, a Labor Day celebration. He was going to say a few words at the Truman statue in front of the old courthouse on the square, and we had hoped that he would want to visit. But as it was, he was not available to do so, so we were not able to meet him for that particular day, which was unfortunate. President [William J.] Clinton has since been in Independence town, and we had hoped that he would visit, but he has yet to visit the Truman home.

WADE: Has there been any advance Secret Service work in case those visits might take place? Would the Secret Service ever arrive early to check the place out, that you recall?

HAYES: Not the Truman home, but I mean the headquarters building. The Secret Service came in and checked every building on the square, that I’m aware of, had agents on top of the roof of the old fire station, at different angles, for protection for the President. It was pretty exciting. Pretty exciting. They were there two or three days ahead, making preparations and readying the area.

WADE: What did they actually do in our visitor center at the fire station?

HAYES: Well, they came in and met the superintendent and informed him as to what they wanted to do. I believe they wanted to know if we had law enforcement personnel, and we had one, I believe, at that time. Yes, we sure did. And other than that, they were very courteous people, said that they would call if they had word that the President wanted to visit Mr. Truman’s home. And we’d hoped that he would, but he never did. So there wasn’t really a whole lot of preparation they did to our building or anything, as far as anything to the building. But they just made sure that they talked with the superintendent and told him what was going on, when it would happen, and to be aware of the situation.

WADE: Did you personally see either Reagan or Clinton?

HAYES: I did get to see both of them.

WADE: What was it like on the square?

HAYES: You couldn’t get within a block of where he was standing, President Reagan. I did not get to see Bill Clinton, now that I think about it, because I do remember that day, but I was not here for that. The day that Reagan came in, we were able to go down and catch a glimpse of him. It was very hot, a very hot day, and so I didn’t get to see a whole lot on that particular day, except we got to see those folks up on the podium when they were saying a few things to the crowd. And of course always making . . . you know, they make reference to Harry Truman’s hometown.

WADE: Let me make sure for the record we’ve got the years. What was the year of Reagan’s visit? [unintelligible], ’85?

HAYES: I just don’t recall. It’s been a while.

WADE: Now Clinton’s been here once as President and once during his campaign. What year was it that he was here as President?

HAYES: I didn’t attend . . .

WADE: Ninety-three?

HAYES: It must have been right after he came in.

WADE: Our political expert technician says 1993. [chuckling]

HAYES: I’m not real good on dates, [chuckling] so sorry about that.

WADE: Actually, I was thinking it might be ’94 when he was here. I was out of town that summer, and that would have been ’94. But anyway, so Reagan mid-’80s at least, and Clinton in the early ’90s.

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Okay. Where do you live now?

HAYES: Oh, I live out in the country. I live out in rural Holden, Missouri. It’s about forty-three miles from where I work up on the square. I’ve lived there since 1988.

WADE: I guess what I really want to know is when you started working with the Park Service you lived in Independence. How much longer did you live in Independence after you started here?

HAYES: Four years.

WADE: Four years? Do we need to take a break?

HAYES: I’m not good on dates. I cannot remember that Reagan thing.

WADE: Well, that’s okay.

ROBERTSON: I think you’re right on Clinton.

WADE: I think Clinton was ’94, because I [unintelligible].

ROBERTSON: It was a warm day, and it would have been the first year.

HAYES: Yes, it was real hot. And see, Donna down at [J.H.] Clinton’s [Drugstore], they got their pictures taken with him.

WADE: And the Reagan thing, that was before I started here. But I think I was at Craters of the Moon, because I wasn’t in on any of that. And I think if it had been ’93, I would have had some recollection or something.

HAYES: That’s true, yes.

WADE: So I was guessing ’94 for Clinton. Like a lot of this stuff, I’m asking questions hoping that maybe as secretary you might have seen some correspondence. But like you were saying, a lot of it apparently was directly from the superintendent to Margaret.

HAYES: Yes, and, oh, it was so many years ago, depending on the subject matter.

WADE: I think it was actually very interesting, I felt, that maybe one of the reasons she doesn’t contact us much is just she’s more comfortable with the job we’re doing. I wonder also if her health has anything to do with it.

HAYES: It could be.

WADE: I don’t know if she’s just maybe not as healthy.

HAYES: And see, our communication has broke down so much with the library. And the director over there, Dr. Zobrist, was our main contact. He was our main flow of information directly from her, and we don’t have that any longer. So if something has happened to her, I don’t ever hear about it, and I don’t even think Ken hears about it, to tell you the truth. And that to me is bad, because I think he needs to know how she is and what she’s doing. Unfortunately, I just don’t think that communication is still there. Maybe it is through Jon [Taylor] our historian or whatever, but I don’t know. It’s just not relayed.

WADE: Well, our superintendent and the director of the library have both changed. I think it’s kind of a mutual problem. It’s not that they’re not ignoring us or we’re ignoring them, it’s just a mutual neglect, maybe?

HAYES: I don’t know how to describe it. I just don’t think that the sensitivity is there because of the people. Like when Norm took it, it was his baby—I mean his first superintendency—and he had to make it work. And he really cared about it. He really cared about the house there. I mean, he really cared about the story. And I believe that Ben Zobrist cared about the family. And I just don’t feel that that’s the genuine feeling with new people as they come on board as managers, because they just can’t have that. How can anyone have that same genuine feeling as in the beginning, if they didn’t know or didn’t know the family?

WADE: Did Norm . . . he didn’t personally know Truman, did he?

HAYES: No.

WADE: But as far as the first superintendent, he may have had an affection for the place or a personal investment, possibly?

HAYES: It was just that he just had a deep regard for the story.

WADE: Do you think that that’s an inevitable trend? Do you think we’ll continue to move more distantly from . . . in this particular direction?

HAYES: As we lose folks who were directly involved with the setup of the park, and people who were directly involved with him as friends and neighbors in this area, yeah, I’m sure it’s going to be lost. And that’s where we have to try and hold onto whatever we’ve got here, as far as the neighborhood and the historic district, so that we can maintain that story.

WADE: Let’s go back for just a minute then. You said that about four years after you started here you continued to live on Truman Road in Independence here. What were your impressions of the locals’ attitude toward the National Park Service coming in?

HAYES: In the beginning, I’d say it was a fifty-fifty feeling of they were glad we were here but they were afraid of what the, quote, government was going to do to their area. The word government scares a lot of people, and this is an old neighborhood area, and a lot of elderly folks back in those days that . . . and to this day there are still people here that want to maintain what they have here in this district. I believe the community accepted us, but they had to learn that we were not going to destroy what they had here and we weren’t going to just walk in and tell them what they could or couldn’t do in their neighborhood. We had to build a trust and relationship with the community, right away. And the ranger in charge, Tom Richter, did a very good job of that when he was assigned this position after Bess’s death in October. We were handed the property and were told to start procedures to take over and preserve and protect this site. And in the interim of when Bess passed away and our first superintendent came on board, these relations were formed, these friendships, so that we could all work together to maintain the integrity of the Truman District and what it meant.

WADE: So you think Tom Richter laid a solid foundation to pave the way for the Park Service?

HAYES: Very well did, yes.

WADE: His last name, he spells it R-I-C-H-T-E-R?

HAYES: That’s correct.

WADE: How long was it between when Mrs. Truman died in October of ’82 . . . when did Norm arrive, the first superintendent? When was that?

HAYES: I believe Norm came on board in November of ’83.

WADE: So a year later?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Well, let me just tell you what I’ve heard. I’ve heard that there seemed to be some animosity possibly on some locals, that they almost felt as if the Park Service had taken something that belonged to them. Did you get any sense of that from anyone you spoke with? Like the city I know at the time was thinking about opening some of its own houses for tours, and possibly the city felt that maybe they should be running the Truman home. Do you have any recollection of anybody ever saying anything to that effect?

HAYES: No, I don’t. I don’t recall ever hearing anything negative, real negative. The only thing I recall hearing about was the fact that they were afraid that the government was moving in their neighborhood. We’re talking about an area here who’s . . . This is the heart of the Midwest, you know, and these people here are . . . How should I say? They’re not wealthy people, and they take a lot of things to heart, and don’t understand a lot of times what Uncle Sam’s doing with their money and what they might do. So we had to kind of explain ourselves and let folks know that we’re not here to harm their hometown. I mean, we’re here to assist them in the Truman story. As it was, they learned that with us here we were helping their community economically, which is needed, and it continues to help economically. But it also helps them to hold their idea of where they’re from here, because this means a lot to these people. And a lot of them don’t want to change. They want to keep everything the same. And we’d like to hold the integrity of the Truman home tight. I mean, we’d like to maintain it, keep it, so that we can interpret the right story to future people and visitors who want to see us.

WADE: Do you think the image, the local image of the National Park Service, has changed over the time you’ve been here?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: How so?

HAYES: For the better. I think that they think that we are here to do a good job. That comes into place with how you are perceived in a community, and that’s one of our high priorities, is to keep maintaining how we are perceived in this community, and how we are going to take care of Mr. Truman and his wife’s house. They want to make sure that we’re doing everything right, and I think they have seen it, and I believe the community has been able to feel confident about it.

WADE: As a person that answers the phones most of the time, do you get a lot of phone calls from people who want to visit the site, asking for information about how to do so?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Well, let me ask you this: What’s your general impression of people’s attitudes towards our policies, as far as how we manage the site? With limited visitation, have there been unhappy people? And not only just visitors, but have you ever received phone calls from, say, local people that think we’re maybe running the place too strictly?

HAYES: In the beginning years of operation here at the Truman home, there was a lot of controversy over how we took care of interpretive tours for our visitor. The policy was decided upon because of the structure, and through educating the visitor, is then informed that there are reasons why this particular policy was initiated. And it’s to protect the structure and the artifacts in the home. And once they’ve heard why you are doing this, they sort of calm down. But we have had some irate people call and come in and throw their fingers in our faces because only eight people could go through at four o’clock and they had an extra person with them and why couldn’t they go? It was a pretty structured operation, and it had to be because we only handed out so many tickets a day, and it protected the resource.
This year we’re right now doing an investigative structural report on the home, and because of our efforts to maintain what structure we have with the minimal amount of visitors per day, so far our structure has held up. And until we can find the funding to help stabilize it and make reinforcement efforts to help it along . . . But that’s the main purpose of the policy, is to keep it as long as we can for the future of the United States and for folks down the line that want to see the home and know about President Truman. And I think that’s why the policy was made. And people, once they hear about it and know what we’re all about, they understand, pretty much, I’d say.

WADE: So it sounds like as secretary you have to be a little bit of an interpreter yourself. [chuckling]

HAYES: Very much. Norm Reigle was very strict about whoever picked up the phone had better know everything about the site, as far as operations and Park Service policy. If you didn’t learn it, you weren’t allowed to speak to people. And so you did. And it was a good policy, because we handled situations. I love dealing with the public. Mainly, Park Service people, if they didn’t like working with the public, they wouldn’t be doing what they do. They like being with different people from different areas and explaining and interpreting what their education has shown them. And so the Park Service is educating the future generations of the United States, and the world, as far as Mr. Truman and after he was President. And that’s . . . I think it’s very important.

WADE: As far as the official title of secretary, are you the only one this park has ever had?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: How exactly do you see your role? How would you describe your role in this park? And tell me something about how you think it might have changed over the time you’ve been here.

HAYES: As a secretary . . . I hate that word secretary. But I really think it should be executive manager, myself, but that’s just a little heady of me. We handle so many different variety of duties. And in the beginning of the park, you know, we didn’t have computers, equipment was different, time factors were different, as far as deadline material. We had planning documents to contend with. We were just super busy trying to get this park on the road and make everything right so that we had documents to go by. And we revise those things whenever they’re supposed to be done. And then with the increase of staff over the years, it becomes a busy operation, even more so. And it’s evolved rather well.
I have enjoyed working with the Park Service, and it’s been a real treat to work for the President. I had never dreamed I’d work for the President ever in my life, and it’s been a real experience for me, and I would not trade it for anything.

WADE: Have you experienced any significant changes in your duties based on the growth of the other divisions over the years?

HAYES: Well, we’re really glad that we have a large interpretive staff. It was needed in the early years, but in the early years the Park Service money and FTE, which is an abbreviation for a body that they bring on to work full-time permanent, and those things were tight, and we had to do everything with a very short amount of people. And now we have a staff of, gosh, sometimes twenty-five in the summer with seasonals. But permanents usually now are ranging close to fifteen permanents now to take care of the operation of the home. And it has really assisted us.
But over the years I think the management styles helped to change the different things that happened in the park. We had a very good manager in the setting up of the park in Mr. Reigle, and he did a very good job. Our current superintendent is on the ball, he has twenty-seven years in the Park Service. I feel very secure in his decision-making. I have no doubt that he knows what he’s doing, and I believe the staff feels the same, and we really feel good with Ken here with us in the park.

WADE: What was your working relationship with Norm like?

HAYES: Norm was a very good instructor. I learned a lot of wonderful Park Service stories and history, and just a wonderful group of people to work with. I can’t say enough about how we blended together and could get the job done. Norm was a very personable person, a very good manager.

WADE: What do you think the benefits of the larger staff are, just in general? The staff size that we have now as compared to what it was?

HAYES: I think the larger staff brings more expertise to the interpretation of President Truman. With each person that comes on board we learn that they have skills that are going to be assets to the staff, and it has proven to be so. And I really believe that the larger staff is helping the operations of the Truman home.

WADE: Can you think of any negative aspects of the larger staff? Do you think that . . . Well, that’s my question.

HAYES: No, I can’t really think of anything negative.

WADE: Earlier you were talking about a sense of teamwork with the smaller group. How would you compare the situation today with earlier?

HAYES: I believe there’s a more open line of teamwork now, and it’s not anyone’s . . . I don’t know how to word this. In the opening of the park, in the early years of the park, in ’84 and probably through . . . oh, I don’t know, maybe ’91 or ’92, the Service had certain ideas that were different in how they managed and operated. The idea now is to help their staff members to grow and express their knowledge in a more open fashion to help the superintendent take care of the home. It’s just a more open line of communication now with the Park Service. They want us to handle more in the field, and we’ve been able to do that, and it’s probably been a better judgment on their part to let us do that. It makes less hoops to go through so that we can accomplish the task, whether it’s painting a structure or making a decision on how to interpret the home.
WADE: This leveling of authority may be kind of a general societal trend. How would you compare, say, Ken Apschnikat, the current superintendent, with Norm Reigle, as far as their management styles? And what do you think the pluses and minuses of those styles might be?

HAYES: Their styles are similar. They’re in the same generation/age group in the Park Service rather. They both had the same feeling for what we’re doing, what the mission is of the Park Service, and they instill that into their staff to help them understand why they’re here. God knows the Park Service doesn’t pay well, but the people that work for the Park Service love what they do. And there is a reason for . . .

[End Tape 1, Side B - Begin Tape 2, Side A]

HAYES: . . . of what we stand for, what we try to do. We’ve got hold of treasures of the United States, and we are here to provide enjoyment for future people, to tell stories of history that will go on forever, as long as the Park Service is able to take care of it and keep and maintain their ideals with their resource.

WADE: What would you say some of the biggest changes have been since you started in ’84 and now, how many years later, nine years later? [tape turned off]

HAYES: . . . not only through these oral histories, but also through daily contacts with the visitors that we meet every day, and the research that our folks are able to accomplish. And there’s just more time really available to do that research, I believe, now, because all the planning has been done. As we’ve acquired the farm home in Grandview, we’re working now on a revision of the General Management Plan, and that will inform Congress what we plan to do with the farm site and how we’re going to maintain it for the United States of America. I believe that’s probably going to be one of the most important things we do in the history of the park. The General Management Plan is like the bible of a site, what you’re going to do with that site, and then you use your staff, who are well-educated and have many, many skills, to accomplish it. I think now what we can do is just work on our historic neighborhood, help keep the integrity of the Truman story alive throughout the area, and interpret that--hopefully for hundreds of years, who knows?

WADE: Have you ever toured the park in the same procedure that a visitor would, where you rode the shuttle bus?

HAYES: Yes, I did.

WADE: Have you done that recently?

HAYES: No.

WADE: Have you done it since there was a shuttle bus?

HAYES: Yes, I have.

WADE: Do you have any thoughts on just maybe seeing it from the visitor’s point of view, as to how the visitor experience might have changed over the years?

HAYES: I really feel that the shuttle bus would be beneficial again, especially for the summer season. To this day I get calls about . . . people who would like to board the shuttle and go down to the home and go in for their tour, and then catch their shuttle a little bit later and come back. I really believe it would benefit the site again, this time only just making it where the shuttle would just take visitors to the homesite and back to the ticket center area instead of all the different sites. Because that did present some confusion. It was a difficult system for them to maintain, and probably as far as liability and time frames, but I think a shuttle would be beneficial once again.

WADE: And just to refresh my memory, what years did the shuttle operate here, do you recall?

HAYES: Eighty-four through probably . . . I think it operated for about three . . . I’m not really sure. Three years, four years maybe?

WADE: Was it still operating when Ron Mack arrived? Do you recall that?

HAYES: No.

WADE: Okay, and he arrived in ’90?

HAYES: I believe so, yes.

WADE: So, by the end of the ’80s the shuttle was no longer active?

HAYES: That’s correct.

WADE: That’s something we can look up. What would you say might have been some of the most important decisions that have had to be made here at this park, and who made them, and do you consider them good or bad, if you care to say?

HAYES: Well, the important decisions, I feel, were the expansion of the legislation for the park, and that was the inclusion of the three homes related to the Truman family. And that was an important decision. It took some time to do so, but it was accomplished. I don’t think it would have been done quite so quickly if the resident of one of the small homes hadn’t passed away. Mrs. Hecker, Doris Hecker, was living in . . .

WADE: The Frank Wallace house, 601 West [Truman Road] . . .

HAYES: Six-oh-one is what I was trying to think of. And she passed away rather suddenly, and I think that kind of got the ball rolling. Aunt May was . . . her health was all right, but she was gaining in her age and was kind of slowing down a little bit, and I think that just kind of precipitated the efforts of us with the legislation of expansion of the three houses.
And the farm home was very important. We did studies on it. One of our former seasonal rangers, Connie Odum Soper, did the draft study of the Truman farm in Grandview, and that is the material that we used, along with some other material by our regional historian, as far as justification to put the farm home into our legislation as well. If we hadn’t, I firmly believe that the farm would be lost. It would just disappear. And luckily we’ve got the farm now so that we can maintain it.

WADE: Okay, let’s take a break. [miscellaneous chitchat, not transcribed]

HAYES: Well, it’s going to be edited, too. I feel crazy when I can’t remember things.

WADE: Oh, well, like I say, I wouldn’t worry about it.

HAYES: You know, I don’t want to say anything about Ron, because it was just a time period in the park where it was just like a dead period. I mean, it was just like dead.

ROBERTSON: The Dark Ages.

WADE: Well, this is a little different, because when people do oral histories about Trumans, most of the people we need to talk about are dead. But in this case, I can understand why somebody would hesitate to be entirely candid sometimes.

HAYES: Yes. Especially it’s like Karen and I were saying, we have to work here.

WADE: That’s right, you can’t go slamming all your [unintelligible]. [chuckling]

HAYES: I mean, we cannot very well say anything that would incriminate us. How I might feel about something is not exactly what I’m going to say, until maybe I’m retired. [chuckling]

WADE: When did Ardis Haukenberry die, anyway? Do you remember what year that was.

HAYES: I don’t remember the year.

WADE: Or not Ardis Haukenberry, Doris Hecker?

HAYES: Oh gosh, I don’t recall. Well, it was during Norm and Joan, because we were just in shock. You know, I think it was ’89.

WADE: Actually, didn’t the park acquire that house after her death? We had the Frank Wallace house before the George Wallace house.

HAYES: Yes, that why I say, we did a pretty quick possession there.

WADE: And the legislation wasn’t actually passed until these other two houses were ready, but we were responsible—

HAYES: No. But it forced them to take the issue to heart. You know, it was just very unexpected. I really don’t think anybody was prepared for that at all.

WADE: How old was she?

HAYES: Maybe fifty.

WADE: Oh, I had no idea.

HAYES: I think she went in for pneumonia or something and had complications. I mean, it was just crazy. [miscellaneous chitchat, not transcribed]

WADE: Weren’t Joan and Norm pretty close?

HAYES: Pretty tight, yes.

WADE: Where did she go?

HAYES: New River Gorge.

WADE: And he went to Mississippi, right?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Mississippi [unintelligible], I think.

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Is she still with the Park Service?

HAYES: Yes, she’s admin. officer.

WADE: Is she still at New River Gorge?

HAYES: Yes, the last I heard.

WADE: Are we rolling? Okay, I was going to ask you, as far as a couple of the other people that were alive when you came on, like May Wallace, I assume you had the opportunity to meet her?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Did you know her? Tell me what you remember about her.

HAYES: Well, the curator had a museum aide who began a close friendship with Aunt May, for probably several reasons, and that main reason was to . . . you know, I would say to assist her in understanding what we were doing here. And also, as our friendship grew with Aunt May, she would have her birthdays and we would have birthday celebrations for her. The staff would come down here, we’d bake a cake, and right in her own home we’d bring the cake in and take some pictures and wish her well on her birthday. She’s a very nice woman, very nice. Dearly loved talking to us. Just thought we were the greatest folks on the face of the earth. She was just very pleasant. A very pleasant lady. A real sweetheart.

WADE: Did she have any comments about what it’s like to have a national park right next door?

HAYES: She may have, but not to me.

WADE: Did you happen to know Ardis Haukenberry over at 216 North Delaware?

HAYES: I met her one time. We had gone over to her house, and she greeted us at the door and she gave us a little tour of the house. She was a very gracious lady. She seemed to get around very well. And she seemed to be receptive to the Park Service. Kind of a happy-go-lucky lady. But that’s really all I recall about her.

WADE: Tell me about what you remember about the dedication of the farm home in 1994. Anything in particular?

HAYES: Well, that was a real nice day. We had Park Service officials and as much of the Truman family that we could have there. We served refreshments, and it turned out to be a sunny day, a little bit windy. Jackson County executives were there—Jackson County Park executives, excuse me. It just turned out to be a real good day. We were able to show people through the farm home a little bit and talk with one of our officials from Washington, Mr. Reynolds, and what he had hoped to accomplish maybe with the farm site, and spoke with several of our staff members in kind of an open forum like after the ceremony. Which was a real treat, because he got to hear some ideas from our staff on what we would like to see there. It was a real special day.

WADE: That was John Reynolds, the then-deputy director of the Park Service.

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Did you go in the farm home yourself that day?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Had you been in there ever before?

HAYES: No, I had not.

WADE: What were your initial impressions of the farm, and how would you compare those to your impressions when you first entered the 219 North Delaware house?

HAYES: Not the same. Knowing what I knew about the artifacts in the farm home kind of took away from what you would feel as an experience of feeling the story. You still get a good story about Harry and his mother and the family there, but at the Truman home you really do get the story down to heart because you see everything that they used themselves—I mean everything that they worked with in their home everyday—and at the farm site that wasn’t there. Those were reproductions or items acquired through the county when they owned the property. But yet, you know, I went on a tour of the farm later, and the story is interpreted very well. It makes you feel warm and it makes you feel that they had a good life there at the farm, and I think it can continue to be interpreted that way.

WADE: You said later, since the dedication ceremony, you’d taken the tour?

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Is there anything you miss about the early days of working here that you feel you don’t have now?

HAYES: I would say probably the excitement of the setup, of getting everything ready, of being involved in management ideas of the park. It was just a very exciting time. This is my first national park I’ve ever worked for, and to be able to get in on the ground level in the very beginning is an experience I think that any Park Service employee needs to take in. Because after that’s all done it’s daily operations, and you have to be creative and continue to make it the most interesting site in the United States for the visitor. And I applaud the interpretive staff, because they have a job to do that takes a lot of time and research to help folks know more and more about the President. And I just feel that now it’s just the time of evolving new information to relay to people, and stories, and maybe new programs that the Park Service could begin to use, especially at the farm home, with school groups and educate our children in the state of Missouri so that they know who President Truman was, where he came from, and what he did when he left the White House. A lot of children don’t know that in this state, and our most recent efforts with the educational video and other informational packets that we are distributing to the schools in the area is a great help. Children need to learn more about their own Missouri or state history, wherever they’re from. And by all means, we have an important man here, and they should know everything that they can learn about a President of the United States from their area. And I think it’s important.

WADE: As far as the excitement of opening a new site, did you feel any of that when we acquired the farm?

HAYES: Yes, it came back. It was wonderful.

WADE: Was it the same?

HAYES: Yes, it was.

WADE: [unintelligible].

HAYES: Yes, because it was a new beginning, another new beginning, where we could just take hold and use our expertise to make it available to people. I have calls all the time, people wanting to see the farm home in Grandview. And I talk with people to this day, even out in the country where I live, that relay stories to me about their grandfather used to have lunch with him [HST] at some little auction house over here in another community, and they relay stories back to their grandchildren, and it’s fun. It’s really fun, because you hear . . . And I think the farm idea is going to be an adventure, because you’re going to learn a lot of different connections there.

WADE: What would you say the biggest challenge facing this park right now is?

HAYES: I’d say probably being able to make contacts of folks who knew Harry and his family at the farm now. I know there are people that we still need to talk to for Independence area, but to help the growth of the interpretive theme at the farm, I really feel that the more research that we can do in a short amount of time will really benefit the visitor.

WADE: If you had to say, what would you consider your biggest personal challenge right now in the job to be?

HAYES: I like the challenge of something different every day, and there is something different happening in my position every day. And then when you have important happenings in the park, whether it’s new planning documents or management ideas, or even community involvement, it’s an ongoing situation, and it has to be for an urban site such as the Truman site in Independence in order to carry it on. It’s a daily adventure. I mean, we talk to people all the time about the Trumans, or we find out things. I enjoy immensely hearing things . . . tidbits from rangers and historians and such that they find out, because I myself do not have the opportunity to do research work on the Trumans and learn of these little stories. And it’s really appreciated because it helps me to keep the variety going, and motivated. The story will always keep me motivated. But I think we’ll always have different things happening in the park. Always will be.

WADE: Okay, one last question. You’ve been here fourteen years, that right? Okay. Let’s say fifty, a hundred years from now, what would be the main thing you would want, say, rangers who might listen to this tape to know about these early days?

HAYES: Try not to get stuck in the paperwork. [voice choking with emotion] It’s hard to talk about it, but just remember who you’re working for, because he was a . . . Mr. Truman was a real gentleman, and the more you learn about him the more you’re going to understand that he’s a real people’s person, probably more so than I can ever remember, as far as a President. I just really feel that you have to remember who you’re interpreting. You can find out all the facts you want, but if you can’t interpret it the right way so that those people don’t get that feeling, you might as well stop.

WADE: How about future secretaries? A hundred years from now, someone doing your job, any advice?

HAYES: They’d better be fast. [chuckling] Because you’ve got ten jillion things to do. But to enjoy it, because it is exciting and you get to work with a lot of great people. And they’ll come and go, but it’s a great job, really.

WADE: It sounds like you like it. Have we got any questions from the technician over here, anything that you want to hear about that I might not have followed up on?

ROBERTSON: I enjoyed it.

HAYES: I told you I’d have a few tears.

ROBERTSON: Well, you [unintelligible].

HAYES: [chuckling] I can’t help it. I’m a sensitive person.

WADE: It’s great that you feel that way about him, about Harry Truman. It’s still like you’re still working for him, and that kind of came through. You know, you don’t sometimes think of it that way, that it’s just the National Park Service, but it’s kind of neat you look at it that way.

HAYES: Yes. I think that kind of goes in with how you’re oriented into the mission of your park and what you’re there for. You know, you’re just not there to run somebody through. I mean, it’s just not like that, not here. Not here. Maybe at another site, but not here.

WADE: Well, hopefully there will be rangers here a hundred years from now listening.

HAYES: That have the same sensitivity.

WADE: Hopefully. But just that there will be rangers a hundred years from now.

HAYES: Period, yeah, and the house will even be here. Yeah, I think that’s part of working for a presidential site. It’s probably really unique. I mean, probably folks that work for a presidential site probably do really feel that way.

WADE: You almost have to have that [unintelligible].

HAYES: You have to have that. Yes, I think so, especially if you’re in the early years of the setup, because you meet so many of the family in the beginning of the park, of a site like this, that you really get the feeling for the family. And you just don’t forget it.

WADE: I imagine that’s just one advantage of us being here. [chuckling]

HAYES: Yes.

WADE: Well, so in the year 2097: Take some pride in your job. That’s good advice. [chuckling]

HAYES: Yeah, it’s been fun. I’m kind of a goofball for sentiment, but . . .

WADE: Well, that’s not [unintelligible]. I’d say that’s the kind you always need to see, that you take things that seriously. Okay, thanks for talking with us. [miscellaneous chitchat, not transcribed]

HAYES: . . . I really feel like there’s maybe a few people in the Park Service that I really think that couldn’t do that, but for the most part, Park Service people are outgoing, they know how to accomplish what they want to say, you know?

WADE: [unintelligible] the job, you think?

HAYES: Yeah, I really think so, and I really think that that’s part of your skills. I mean, you know how to talk to people and how to get something through to them.

WADE: Well, you talk to people pretty well, too. You’ve got to do it all day long on the phone, don’t you?

ROBERTSON: Yeah, that really was. I enjoyed listening to that. I thought it was interesting.

WADE: I mean, I always envisioned you’d have to field complaints, and I know that you just get questions, god, about everything in the world.

HAYES: You know what? I just loved it. I really miss that. I really miss being in contact with people on a day-to-day basis. Like they used to come upstairs and they used to hit us with stuff, you know?

ROBERTSON: So that’s not as ongoing as it was?

WADE: So that doesn’t happen as much? You’re talking about just . . . what? Like what do you mean?

HAYES: Operations, and . . . It just doesn’t happen anymore.

WADE: I guess everybody knows what . . . We’re all dug in, people don’t have the questions they used to have?

HAYES: I think what it is, is that they’re more well-informed now, and that they don’t--

ROBERTSON: It was all new at the beginning, and everybody was just kind of unsure [unintelligible].

HAYES: Yeah, and they questioned how we did it, see?

WADE: It’s kind of like doing interpretation, I guess, that if . . . In a sense, we would never want everybody to know everything about Harry Truman, because then we’d have nothing to do. [chuckling]

HAYES: Right. Because you have to keep researching. And I really . . . it’s a very--

WADE: Yeah, so it’s kind of being successful, because people know the operation. On the other hand, you kind of lose the thrill of getting to explain it to people.

HAYES: You really have a hard job, and I do not envy an interpreter, because they’ve got to continue . . .


END OF INTERVIEW



ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW

WITH

JENNIFER HAYES



MAY 22, 1997

INDEPENDENCE, MISSOURI





INTERVIEWED BY JEFF WADE

ORAL HISTORY #1997-2

This transcript corresponds to audiotapes DAV-AR #





HARRY S TRUMAN NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR


EDITORIAL NOTICE

This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for Harry S Truman National Historic Site. After a draft of this transcript was made, the park provided a copy to the interviewee and requested that he or she return the transcript with any corrections or modifications that he or she wished to be included in the final transcript. The interviewer, or in some cases another qualified staff member, also reviewed the draft and compared it to the tape recordings. The corrections and other changes suggested by the interviewee and interviewer have been incorporated into this final transcript. The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition. The transcript includes bracketed notices at the end of one tape and the beginning of the next so that, if desired, the reader can find a section of tape more easily by using this transcript.

Jennifer Hayes, Jeff Wade, and Jim Williams reviewed the draft of this transcript. Their corrections were incorporated into this final transcript by Perky Beisel in summer 2001. A grant from Eastern National Park and Monument Association funded the transcription and final editing of this interview.


RESTRICTION

Researchers may read, quote from, cite, and photocopy this transcript without permission for purposes of research only. Publication is prohibited, however, without permission from the Superintendent, Harry S Truman National Historic Site.



ABSTRACT

Jennifer A. Hayes, an employee at Harry S Truman National Historic Site since its inception, discusses the park’s development, physically and organizationally.

Persons mentioned: Norman Reigle, Joan Sanders, Bess W. Truman, Harry S Truman, Benedict K. Zobrist, Vicky Anderson, Thomas P. Richter, Hubert Humphrey, Lyndon B. Johnson, Margaret Truman Daniel, May Wallace, Steve Harrison, Ronald Mack, Ken Apschnikat, George Wallace, Ronald Reagan, William J. Clinton, Jon Taylor, Doris Hecker, Frank Wallace, Ardis Haukenberry, and John Reynolds.