Reverend David C. Patrick Oral History Interview

Father David C. Patrick

NPS

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH DAVID C. PATRICK

AUGUST 14, 1991
JOPLIN, MISSOURI

INTERVIEWED BY JIM WILLIAMS
ORAL HISTORY #1991-20
This transcript corresponds to audiotapes DAV-AR #4363-4364

HARRY S TRUMAN NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

EDITORIAL NOTICE

This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for Harry S Truman National Historic Site. After a draft of this transcript was made, the park provided a copy to the interviewee and requested that he or she return the transcript with any corrections or modifications that he or she wished to be included in the final transcript. The interviewer, or in some cases another qualified staff member, also reviewed the draft and compared it to the tape recordings. The corrections and other changes suggested by the interviewee and interviewer have been incorporated into this final transcript. The transcript follows as closely as possible the recorded interview, including the usual starts, stops, and other rough spots in typical conversation. The reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written, word. Stylistic matters, such as punctuation and capitalization, follow the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition. The transcript includes bracketed notices at the end of one tape and the beginning of the next so that, if desired, the reader can find a section of tape more easily by using this transcript.
David C. Patrick and Jim Williams reviewed the draft of this transcript. Their corrections were incorporated into this final transcript by Perky Beisel in summer 2000. A grant from Eastern National Park and Monument Association funded the transcription and final editing of this interview.

RESTRICTION

Researchers may read, quote from, cite, and photocopy this transcript without permission for purposes of research only. Publication is prohibited, however, without permission from the Superintendent, Harry S Truman National Historic Site.

ABSTRACT

The Reverend David C. Patrick served as rector of Trinity Episcopal Church in Independence, Missouri, for four years (1951-1955). During that period he was the pastor for Bess W. Truman, Margaret Truman, and Madge Gates Wallace, who died in 1952. Patrick describes Harry S Truman and his attitudes towards the church, women who served with Bess W. Truman on the altar guild, and the groundbreaking ceremony of the Truman Library.

Persons mentioned: Harry S Truman, Bess W. Truman, Margaret Truman Daniel, J. Harry Lembcke, Madge Gates Wallace, Dean Acheson, Curtis L. Tiernan, John Shirley, Gene Jones, Harvey Jones, Bill Sermon, Roger T. Sermon, George Porterfield Wallace, Frank Gates Wallace, E. Clifton Daniel, Jr., Margaret Story, Patric Hutton, Ronald Reagan, Richard M. Nixon, William Aaron Whitehead, William Garnett, Robert L. Hart, Adelaide Twyman, Linda King, Verna Case, Betty Ott, Marge Jackson, Cecil Jackson, Merritt Case, Winifred Pierce, Janet Knox, J. Vivian Truman, May Wallace, Natalie Ott Wallace, D. Frederick Wallace, Robert McCormick, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and William McKinley.

ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW WITH DAVID C. PATRICK

HSTR INTERVIEW #1991-20

JIM WILLIAMS: This is an oral history interview with David Patrick. We’re at his
house in Joplin, Missouri, on the afternoon of August 14, 1991. The
interviewer is Jim Williams from the National Park Service, and
Scott Stone from the National Park Service is running the recording
equipment.
Well, first of all, I’d like to thank you for letting us come down today.
DAVID PATRICK: Happy to do so.
WILLIAMS: And before we get to your experience in Independence, could you tell us
something about your life before that?
PATRICK: Well, I was born in Indianapolis, Indiana. I attended public schools there, I
graduated from high school there, and then went to Indiana University and
Butler University—Butler University is in Indianapolis—where I received
my undergraduate degree. That was in history. And then I went to
Nashotah House Seminary, which is in—that’s N-A-S-H-O-T-A-H,
Nashotah House—at Nashotah, Wisconsin, and that’s the seminary of the
Episcopal Church, where I had three years of graduate study and leading to
what is known as a Master of Divinity degree.
After I graduated from seminary in 1949, I served for a little over
two years as an assistant at Saint Michael and All Angels in Baltimore,
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Maryland, and then I received a call to go to Trinity Independence in April
of 1951. I was in Independence from 1951 until 1955, so that’s a little over
four years. And, of course, when I arrived in Independence . . . Well, and
since that time I was rector at Saint Philip’s Church in Joplin, Missouri, and
was rector there from 1955 until retirement in 1985, and so I was there
thirty years as rector at Saint Philip’s Church here in Joplin.
When I arrived in Independence, of course, Mr. Truman was in his
second term, and it was shortly after the Korean War began. I went there,
as I say, in April of 1951, and I left Independence in August of 1955, so I
was there a little over four years. And while I was in Independence is when
I met my wife, and we were married there at Trinity Church, and that’s
where our daughter was born. Well, she was born not in Independence, but
in Kansas City, at Saint Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City.
But as I say, when I arrived in Independence is when . . . it was
during Mr. Truman’s second term in office, and of course he left office in
January of 1953. So, for a little over . . . well, I guess it’s . . . yeah, almost
two years, he was president while I was a rector of the church in Independence.
Mr. Truman was not an Episcopalian. His wife and daughter were,
and Bess Truman was a very regular attender at services at Trinity
Episcopal Church. Frankly, I doubt if the whole time that I was there that
Mr. Truman ever went to the Baptist church. As a matter of fact, after I left
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there, why, when he died he was buried using the Episcopal service, and
John Henry Lembcke was the rector at the time of Mr. Truman’s death, and
John Lembcke was the one that conducted his services.
And so, as I say, during the time he was president, the Trumans
would come home at Christmas time, and they would also come home
during the summer months. Oh, maybe sometime in July and August they
would come home to Independence. No Air Force One in those days. If
they’d come home, they didn’t ride in Sununu style; they came on the train.
They used to ride the B&O from Washington to St. Louis, and then from
St. Louis to Independence on the MoPac, on one of the Eagles, and that was
how they traveled back and forth between Washington and Independence. I
never saw them ever take a plane or ever fly home; it was always the train.
And of course, when they would come home, Margaret . . . Before
they went to Washington, Margaret sang in the choir there at Trinity
Church, and so whenever she’d come home, why, at Christmas time, she’d
always sing in the choir at Christmas. They’d usually get home a little
before Christmas, so Margaret would come to some of our choir rehearsals
in preparation for Christmas. Then, of course, [chuckling] when Margaret
sang in the choir, why, we’d have huge crowds—standing room only—at
the church because, you know, everybody knew that Margaret was going to
be singing in the choir, that perhaps Mrs. Truman was going to be there. So
we’d have standing-room-only for the Christmas Eve services at
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Independence.
Whenever they did come home, I’d always regularly call up the
house to take home Communion to Madge Gates Wallace, Mrs. Truman’s
mother. She was still living at the time, and the whole time that . . . Well,
no, I guess she died just before he went out of the White House because I
had her burial. It was out at that cemetery on Noland Road in
Independence. I forget the name of the cemetery, but it was that cemetery
out there on Noland Road where she was buried. I remember that I went to
the house, and we had a short service at the house for Mrs. Truman’s
mother, and then . . . And of course I always, usually whenever we had a
burial service, I’d always ride in the hearse. And when we got out to the
cemetery, why, the thing that amazed me was standing there at the cemetery
and all the Secret Service men were facing away from the service because
they were looking out, you know, to make sure that there was not going to
be any attack coming from somewhere, and they’d be behind tombstones
and so forth all around. [chuckling] I know that when we turned into the
cemetery some character driving along on Noland Road almost ran into the
procession. And, boy, listen, the cops were all over him like you wouldn’t
believe, running through a funeral procession, and most of all, running
through a funeral procession in which the President of the United States
was a part of it. But anyhow, that was the thing. And it seemed to me it
was . . . It seems to me it was at a time of the year when all the leaves were
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off the trees, and I forget exactly when Mrs. Wallace died.
WILLIAMS: It was in December.
PATRICK: Was it December? Well, that must have been just the December after the
election then, just before he was . . . just before he went out of office the
following month.
WILLIAMS: That’s right.
PATRICK: But I know I remember that there were no leaves on the trees at the time.
And the year before, I remember going to the house to take Communion. It
would always be at Christmas, and sometimes, it seems to me, they came
home at Easter as well. But I would go to the house and take Communion
to Mrs. Wallace. And I remember the Christmas before I went there, and
after I had given Communion to Mrs. Wallace, why, Mr. Truman invited
me into the front room to, as he said, “So I could see the loot he got for
Christmas.” And he showed me all the presents he got there.
The thing that kind of was something, to me anyhow, I felt like I
was a bystander in history because as I was sitting there talking to him,
why, just then the telephone rang and one of the aides came in and said,
“Mr. Truman, Mr. Acheson is on the phone wanting to talk to you.” Of
course, that was at the time of the Korean War, and I’m sure it had
something to do with the Korean situation at the time. Of course, Dean
Acheson was the Secretary of State. And then I listened later on, on radio.
Television was just beginning to come in about that time. I didn’t have a
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television set, but I did have a radio set, and I heard the radio news saying
that Mr. Truman was home in Independence, and such and such took place,
and he received a call from Dean Acheson, and there was some discussion
of something or other with regard to the Korean War. So, you know, in that
sense I felt that I was a little bit in on the scene of history.
I will say this, that Mrs. Truman was one of the most delightful
persons I have ever met. She was a most unassuming person, very kind and
very gentle, a woman that absolutely took the worst pictures of anybody I
ever saw in my life. She always looked like a battle-ax in her pictures, and
that isn’t the way she looked in person. She was very neat, trim, and rather
a pretty woman really, and just as neat as could be, and very well-dressed.
And her pictures always made her look absolutely dowdy, and it looked like
she was about ready to wield an ax on somebody. As I say, she was the
most unphotogenic person I’ve ever seen in my life, but really a very
beautiful person when you met her because she was so unassuming, did not
put on any airs of any kind. Well, neither did Harry, as far as that goes. He
was a very, very easygoing person to talk to, and interesting to talk to. I
don’t know whether that gives you any idea of what you wanted or not.
WILLIAMS: When you were called to Trinity, were you aware that that was the
Truman’s church?
PATRICK: Oh, sure. Sure. I mean, it was very well-known that Mrs. Truman and
Margaret were Episcopalians, and as I say, I knew Harry was a Baptist. But
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as I say, as far as I know, he never attended the Baptist church. Anytime he
ever attended church it was always with Bess and Margaret. As a matter of
fact, I said to him one time . . . [chuckling] It was rather interesting, I said,
“Mr. Truman,” I said, “how come you have never joined the Episcopal
church?” I said, “Your wife and your daughter have always gone.” I said,
“You never go to the Baptist church,” and I said, “Why is it that you have
never become an Episcopalian?” And he said, “Well,” he said, “I don’t
think I can go all that ritual.” And what he meant was ceremonial. And I
said, “Mr. Truman, you’re a 33rd-degree Mason, and you object to ritual
and ceremony?” [chuckling] And he said, “Well, I guess you’ve got a
point there.” [chuckling] I said, “You guys can back us off the map, as far
as ceremony is concerned.”
But after he left the White House, I would go by every now and
then and call on them. And it was very interesting to sit on the back porch.
The back porch there, they had a big fan, and they used to sit out there an
awful lot. It was one of their favorite places to sit, was on that back porch,
and I’d sit down there and have a talk with them. And particularly I can
remember going there to call on him after he’d had his gallbladder out, and
I don’t know, that was after he was out of the White House. And I went
over to Kansas City to call on him at the hospital—and that was at
Research, as I remember—where he had his gallbladder out.
Oh, one of his old buddies was a monsignor [Curtis L. Tiernan]. I
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forget what his name was. I can’t think of it. It was a good old Irish name,
that he had been chaplain with the Company A during the First World War.
He was a longtime friend of Mr. Truman, was this Roman Catholic
chaplain from the First World War, Company A. I can’t remember what
his name . . . Monsignor something or other.
I know that the monsignor was out at Independence when the
Truman Library groundbreaking ceremony took place—which, by the way,
I was a part of that. You’ll probably see my picture in there if you look, at
the time they were setting the cornerstone at the groundbreaking
ceremony—not the cornerstone ceremony but the groundbreaking
ceremony. And he had me read a scriptural lesson from First Kings, I think
it was, where it described the building—or maybe it was Second Kings—
where it described the building of Solomon’s temple. And of course, Mr.
Truman being a great Mason, why, he . . . That’s one reason why I guess he
wanted that scriptural passage read about Solomon’s temple, because in
connection with the building of a building like the library was. This
monsignor, by the way, I think at the time also gave the . . . Do you
remember his name? Monsignor . . .?
WILLIAMS: Not offhand.
PATRICK: He was very well-known around Kansas City, but he gave one of the
prayers at that groundbreaking ceremony. As a matter of fact, that’s the last
time . . . I was just getting ready to leave Independence when that . . . That
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seems to me the groundbreaking was either in July or August, just before—
I think maybe it was July—just before I left. That would have been ’55, the
summer of ’55, and when they had that groundbreaking ceremony. And
that’s when I told Mrs. Truman that I was getting ready to leave
Independence to come down here to become a rector down here. They
gave us a little silver bowl as a going-away present.
WILLIAMS: The Trumans did, or the church?
PATRICK: No, the Trumans did. It’s around here somewhere. It’s a little silver bowl.
But anyhow—
WILLIAMS: Was it hard to leave?
PATRICK: Oh, yeah, very much so. You know, you’re around a place for four years
and you know all the people that were there. Yeah, it’s always a little
difficult, leave-taking from any situation you’re in. It would have been, you
know, even if the Trumans weren’t there, it would have been. It’s always
difficult to leave any place after you’ve been there and you’ve sunk your
roots a little bit in the place.
I can remember at the time that after . . . you know, after he’d had
his gallbladder out, and sitting on the back porch there, why, we got into a
long discussion, and he was telling me about the four or five hats that a
president had to wear, which was one of his favorite subjects. And he
might have mentioned that in his memoirs, I don’t know, but he said that .
. . I think he said five or six hats—I forget exactly how many—but he said,
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of course he has to be the chief executive officer of the United States, he
has to be commander in chief of the armed forces, he has to be today a
leader, a world leader, he has to have the hat of trying to ride herd on
Congress, and he said he had to be the leader of his party. I guess those
were the five jobs that he said he had to be as President of the United States,
and that anybody that was President of the United States had to realize that
they had these five jobs that he had to be on top of.
As a matter of fact, he said the same thing when he came down to
the church one Sunday morning. We had a men’s breakfast. We had him
come down to speak to the men’s breakfast groups at the church. This was
after he was out of the White House, and he said the same thing in that
speech that he gave. And I’d be willing to bet that there’s probably some
mention of that in his memoirs, this same idea of the president’s five hats.
And it was on that occasion, sitting on the porch, where we got into
the long discussion about the five jobs of the presidency. He and Mrs.
Truman got into an argument about something, and he said, “Now, that
took place in 1924.” She said, “Oh no, it didn’t.” She said, “It took place
in 1923.” He said, “Oh no, I think you’re mistaken, my dear.” He said, “It
took place in 1924.” She said, “It took place in 1923!” He said, “All
right.” He said, “If the boss says it took place in ’23, that’s when it took
place.” [chuckling] And that’s the way he always referred to her as “the
boss.” “The boss said this and the boss said that . . .” [chuckling]
11
WILLIAMS: So you had opportunities to sit and visit with them.
PATRICK: Oh, yeah.
WILLIAMS: It just wasn’t in church that you would see them?
PATRICK: Oh, no. Well, as I say, when I’d come by to the house, and after he was out
of the White House . . . Of course, [chuckling] one of the funny things that
happened is one of my friends . . . About that summer, I think, they were
paving Truman Road. It was a hot summer, as I remember. Oh, God, it
was hot that summer. It would get up in the hundreds, 110, something like
that, all summer long. So, on Truman Road there where they were paving
it, it was very dusty. And somebody would go down the street there, and
the dust would go everywhere, and Mr. Truman, of course, trying to sit on
the back porch there, on his porch there, and somebody’d go whizzing
down that street and raising the clouds of dust. Oh, he just got furious
about it! And they finally blocked off the street.
Well, a good friend of mine was visiting our house at the time, and
my wife and I were away on vacation, and I said to him . . . I left the key
with somebody and said, “Now, John, when you’re through here, if you
want to stay at the house, go ahead, because we’re not going to be at home
at all.” And he wanted to visit around the Independence and Kansas City
area, and I said, “When you’re there, just use our house instead of having to
pay for a motel.” So he did. [chuckling] And he said that he went down
Truman Road that day, and he apparently went through the barricades.
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[chuckling] And he said that right in front of the summer White House,
why, he said that the cops nailed him. And he said the lights were flashing
all over the place and, of course, this friend of mine had California license
plates on his car. And just as the police were going to . . . They didn’t give
him a ticket, they just gave him a warning. And while they were standing
there, Mr. Truman came out, just red-faced, and he said, “Arrest that man
and throw him into jail!” And my friend John Shirley [chuckling] said,
“Okay, Mr. Truman.” The cop said, “Okay, Mr. Truman, we’ll take care of
it.” So he took him . . . He said to the guy, to my friend he said, “Follow
me.” [chuckling] So, as he got out of sight of Delaware Avenue or
Delaware Street, why, he said, “Young man, take your car and get out of
town. Just get out of town.” And my friend said that he had to sneak back
under cover of darkness to get back in to where all his clothes were at our
house. [chuckling] But, oh, Mr. Truman was really irate because people
would be going down that street and dust just going everywhere. He
couldn’t sit on his back porch. [chuckling]
WILLIAMS: Where did you live in Independence?
PATRICK: I lived out on South Noland Road. We had a house that the church rented
for us out there. It was about . . . oh, just before you get to Alton on Noland
Road, and we were on the east side of Noland Road. We lived right next
door to a fellow by the name of Gene Jones, whose brother was Harvey
Jones, who was the county engineer for Jackson County. Of course, I knew
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Bill Sermon real well, too. Bill Sermon was quite a guy. I don’t know if
you’ve ever heard of Bill Sermon or not, but he was the Democratic boss of
eastern Jackson County, and he was a member of the congregation, too.
WILLIAMS: That was Roger’s brother.
PATRICK: Roger Sermon, the mayor of Independence. Yeah, Bill was Roger’s
brother. Roger, they called him “Ugh,” too, because for some reason or
other they called him “the chief,” Chief Ugh. But Ugh Sermon was Roger
Sermon, and he was the mayor of Independence, and as I say, Bill Sermon
was his brother. Bill lived up on Winner Road and was the Democratic
boss. I don’t know whether he was a sheep or a goat, but I think he was
part of the Shannon faction.
WILLIAMS: Could you describe Madge Wallace a little bit more?
PATRICK: Yeah, Madge Wallace was . . . well, when I knew her she was quite elderly.
She was not senile at all, but she was a very quiet person and never said . . .
really never said much when I talked to her. She was from the Gates
family, which was the big milling company they had in . . . the Gates
Milling Company was . . . Madge’s maiden name was Madge Gates, and if
you’ll look in Independence there, there’s the old Gates home, which was
quite an imposing place. I don’t know what street it’s on, but it’s on the . . .
Just south of the square in Independence is the old Gates home. I’ve been
in the Gates home because we knew somebody that lived there, and I can’t
think what their name is now that lived in that house. But that was the
14
original home of Mrs. Truman’s mother. And I think that’s where the
family money came from was from the Gates family, from her mother, not
from the Wallaces. Of course, when I was in Independence, why, Mrs.
Truman had two brothers still living. What were their names? George
Wallace, and I forget what the other brother’s name was.
WILLIAMS: Frank.
PATRICK: Frank, yeah, and they were both members of the church in Independence—
Frank and George, and then Bess. It seems to me one of those brothers’
wives was a Roman Catholic, but I can’t be positive of that. And I can
remember one time [chuckling] George was helping Harry move some
furniture from up in the attic somewhere, and something slipped on it and
the furniture came down and broke George’s ankle—I think it was George.
And I had to call on George at home after he had his broken ankle that
Harry dropped the furniture on.
WILLIAMS: Was Mrs. Wallace not able to come to church?
PATRICK: No, she was pretty much a shut-in when I knew her. As I say, she only
lived . . . Well, I arrived in 1951 and she died in ’52, so she only lived
maybe seventeen, eighteen months after I arrived there. So she was quite
feeble and a shut-in, didn’t get out at all. She was really a shut-in.
WILLIAMS: Where was she in the house when you would visit?
PATRICK: Well, it seems to me on a side room. Where I’d always take Communion to
her would be on a side room right off of Truman Road, right on the north
15
side of the house.
WILLIAMS: Was it a bedroom or a sitting room?
PATRICK: It was a sitting room, yeah, and I think her bedroom was off of that room.
Yeah, it was a sitting room is where she would be. And as I say, it seems to
me her bedroom was on the first floor, because, as I say, she was not very
ambulatory. And I can’t tell you what she died of, probably just old age,
because she was quite elderly when I was there. I don’t know how old she
would have been. She must have been in her eighties, though.
WILLIAMS: So would you go by once a month with Communion?
PATRICK: No, because, you see, most of the time she was in Washington with the
family, and it would only be when they’d come home. I’d take maybe
every month when she was there in the summertime, and at Christmas time,
and if they happened to come home sometime around Easter. It seems to
me they used to come home at Easter, too, and I’d take Communion to her.
But whenever she was home. But most of the time, as I say, when I was
there, till . . . No, I guess I did take Communion to her one . . . No, because .
. . that’s right, because she died while he was still president, yeah. So it
would have only been . . . It was not after they had come home. No, that’s
right.
WILLIAMS: Would someone call and ask you to come by?
PATRICK: No, I would just call on the phone, and I’d ask for Mrs. Truman, and I’d
say, “Do you think your mother would like Communion today?” And
16
she’d say, “Yeah, that will be fine,” and so I’d go. That would be, as I say .
. . Or I would say something to Margaret, you know.
And then one time, as I say, this would have been, I guess,
somewhere in the summer . . . He got out in ’53, didn’t he? Yeah. And I
left in ’55. So, somewhere in the summer of ’53 they had a big welcomehome
dinner for him that the city fathers of Independence put on. It was at
the RLDS auditorium and, oh, it was . . . Maybe it was in the spring of the
year—I know my wife was very pregnant with my daughter—and we were
at the head table because they asked me to give the invocation at this thing,
this big dinner. I sat between Margaret and Mrs. Truman, I believe it was,
at the head table, and my wife was on the other side of Margaret, I believe,
or maybe she was down there with George Wallace or one of the other
members of the family. But anyhow, I can still remember about a week or
two later, we didn’t have too much television news at that time, and it was
on Fox Movie-Tone News, the newsreels in those days, and we waited so
we could see that because they had taken newsreel pictures of this
welcome-home deal. And there, [chuckling] coming up on the stage—they
caught us all walking up on the stage—there was my wife, just as pregnant
as could be, right there on the stage.
And I can remember sitting next to Margaret. These newsreel
photographers, they would just be grinding away, and right in the middle of
. . . right in your face. Those camera lenses weren’t more than about that
17
far from your face when you were sitting there at the table. And at the table
at dinner, they were grinding away at Margaret sitting next to me, and as I
say, that far away from her face. And I thought, my Lord, how can they
stand that day after day after day having those guys grind their cameras
right square in the middle of their faces? And they would go on forever
grinding away. And finally Margaret said to these fellows, “Okay, boys,
knock it off. We want to eat now.” And they were very nice and they left,
but they just kept grinding away. And I thought to myself, I’ll bet they took
thirty minutes of pictures, and of course when it came on the newsreel it
was about what, a half a minute time bite, you know, that they call it today
in the newsreel—not more than a minute—after grinding away for, as I say,
for at least a half an hour of pictures. And I thought to myself, how many
pictures they must have taken for just a small segment that would appear on
the television newsreels.
And I couldn’t even begin to tell you who was the speaker on that
occasion. It seems to me Harry talked, because . . . yeah, I think he did.
There was, I think, the mayor of Independence, and I can’t think who the
mayor was at that time. He gave a little welcome-home address, and then
Mr. Truman responded. That was about it. But that was that welcomehome
dinner, as I say, it was on television and we were in on that.
WILLIAMS: How would you describe Margaret Truman as a person?
PATRICK: There again, a very unassuming person, lots of vitality, really a very sweet
18
person, as I remember her. Very well-dressed, and a quite attractive person,
physically speaking. Wore beautiful clothes. My wife would say, “My
goodness, look at those clothes that she’s wearing. They’re really
something.” You know, the very fact that she would come back there and
sing in that little church choir and so forth at Christmas and Easter time,
you know, that says something about her. No put-on at all about her. She
was married there, by the way—
WILLIAMS: We’re out of tape. Let me hold you for a minute.
PATRICK: Okay. I’d like to show you something in a few minutes.
WILLIAMS: We’re going to trade without changing tapes. [chuckling] We’d like to
find a way . . .
STONE: Find a way to go faster.
[End #4363; Begin #4364]
PATRICK: Yeah, it’s something that I have that you might be interested in seeing.
STONE: Will our cord be long enough to reach there on the microphone?
PATRICK: No, I’ll have to undo and go and get it.
STONE: Okay.
WILLIAMS: Well, I’d say you have a good memory.
PATRICK: Well, it’s been quite a while, though.
WILLIAMS: I talk to people about things just a few years ago and they don’t know as
much you are talking about forty years ago.
PATRICK: Yeah . . .
19
WILLIAMS: Let’s see, Margaret was . . .
PATRICK: I left there, as I say, in August of 1955, and I think Margaret was married in
April of ’56 to the guy from the New York Times. Oh, what’s his name?
WILLIAMS: Clifton.
PATRICK: Clifton Daniel. And she was married to Clifton then the following April,
and I was . . . I did not officiate at their marriage. Patric Hutton, who was
the rector that followed me, was the one that officiated at their marriage.
And it was, there again, at Trinity Church. That’s why, as I say, there was
no put-on about Margaret at all, you know. You would think that they’d
have a big church wedding in New York City somewhere, you know, or
Washington. No, it was back in that little Trinity Church that didn’t seat
more than about a hundred people, and that’s where she wanted to be
married. That’s where she grew up, that’s where she went to church school,
that’s where . . . you know, all those things, and that’s where she took piano
lessons from Margaret Story, who was a well-known piano teacher around
Independence. I don’t know whether you ever heard of Margaret Story or
not, but that was Margaret Truman’s piano teacher.
WILLIAMS: Was part of the appeal to the job at Trinity the fact that you would get to
know the Trumans?
PATRICK: Not particularly. No, I had served for two years as an assistant in
Baltimore, Maryland, and I wanted to be on my own. And certainly I was.
And of course, a lot of my seminary classmates kind of razzed me about
20
being chaplain to the “Royal Family.” [chuckling] But no, that wasn’t the
main reason I went out there. It was just because it was an opportunity to .
. . And I wanted to get back to the Middle West again. As I say, I grew up
in Indiana, and Maryland was fine, but being a Midwesterner, that’s where I
wanted to be back again.
WILLIAMS: Do you recall your first visit to the home, your impressions of the house?
PATRICK: Well, I do. Yeah, of course, anytime you went there you had to be passed
through the Secret Service. They didn’t frisk you or anything like that,
[chuckling] but they’d kind of check things over. Like, for instance, I’d
come there, and I had a Communion set, you know, and so they’d kind of
make sure that I wasn’t carrying a bomb or anything in the Communion set.
But you always had to pass through the Secret Service, and—
WILLIAMS: Where were they?
PATRICK: Well, later, after he retired from the presidency, they had a little house in
the back there, a little shack out there. It seems to me you’d come through
the back entrance, not the front entrance. It seems to me . . . That’s right,
I’d come through the back way because you’d have to go through that
Secret Service . . . through that Secret Service shack and so forth, and then
they’d usher you in.
As I remember, they had . . . it was just a typical Victorian house, a
frame house. You had the front entrance hall, as I remember, and it seems
to me there was a . . . the sitting room was over on the left, I believe, when
21
you came in, and I don’t know what was on the right. That was the dining
room, I guess, maybe? I’m not sure. I never did seem to go on the righthand
side. We’d go on the left-hand side where the sitting room was.
WILLIAMS: Is that the south, when you say left-hand side?
PATRICK: No, as you go in the front door, it would be on the north side, wouldn’t it,
where that sitting room was? It seems to me that’s where the Christmas
tree was when I went in. It was on the north side, that front room on the
north side. I never was upstairs in the house. And as I say, Mrs. Wallace’s
sitting room was over on the north side. And I guess her bedroom was off
of that room somewhere. And so, as I said, when I’d sit on the back porch
with them after he was out of the White House, when I used to go there,
that would be where I would be was on that back porch.
WILLIAMS: Did it seem like a president’s house?
PATRICK: No. No, no. Surely, if you think about San Clemente or the president’s
house up at . . . I mean, the previous one [Ronald Reagan] out in Beverly
Hills, certainly not. No, there again, as I say, like the Trumans coming back
and forth from Washington, it was on the train. No Air Force One, no big
to-do. Matter of fact, Mr. Truman made some remark about that at the time
of Nixon’s . . . all the stuff that Nixon got put in for him at San Clemente.
He made some remark about he paid for his own fence in front of the house.
He said, “I paid for my own fence,” or something like that. He made some
remark about that, about Nixon’s San Clemente business.
22
WILLIAMS: Would you ever visit them in the little library or study on the north side?
Do you remember that?
PATRICK: No, I don’t. It seems to me that may have been where Mrs. Wallace . . . the
sitting room at the time.
WILLIAMS: They converted it after—
PATRICK: Must have converted that. After she died, I imagine they must have
converted that. It seems to me that would have been where she was,
because that’s where I’d always go to take Communion to her.
WILLIAMS: Would you walk through the kitchen?
PATRICK: No, I never have been through the kitchen. It would always be usually the
front door or through the . . . up the back steps onto the porch, that back
porch. As I say, I can remember they had a big revolving fan on that back
porch, because I’m quite tall and they’d always warn me to be sure that I
didn’t get my head tangled up in that fan.
The last time I saw them personally was many years later when I
was having dinner in Kansas City at the Savoy, and a friend from Joplin
and I were there. We had gone up to a meeting in Kansas City of the
diocese and we were having dinner at the Savoy. And while I was sitting
there, it was about three or four years after I had left Independence, and as I
was sitting there. I didn’t pay any attention, somebody came in. All of a
sudden I heard somebody say, “Well, Father Patrick, hello! How are you?”
And I looked up, and there was Mrs. Truman, and following right behind
23
her was Harry. And they took a table right close by where we were seated.
She asked me all about how I was doing and so forth, and I asked her how
she was feeling and how Mr. Truman was. I introduced Mr. Truman to my
friend from Joplin who was . . . he was quite impressed. [chuckling] And
as I say, that’s the last time I saw them personally was after I had moved
down here after about four or five years. I guess it was about four or five
years later. And apparently that was one of their favorite eating places was
the Savoy, an old-fashioned Kansas City dining area. Have you ever eaten
there? It’s an interesting place.
WILLIAMS: Once, I think.
PATRICK: Well, they used to apparently like the Savoy.
WILLIAMS: There’s a researcher, Monte Poen. I don’t know if you’ve ever read any of
his books about the Trumans, but he goes there, and every time he asks for
the Truman booth, and they give him a different one. [chuckling]
PATRICK: Well, of course, I think a funny thing that happened with us, we had a
rummage sale at the church, and so they brought a whole bunch of stuff
over from the Trumans, and a bunch of old clothing. One was an old
topcoat. [chuckling] And one of the men that was helping the ladies out in
this thing, he would tell everybody in there that came in about this coat.
“Well, oh, that came from the Trumans’ house, and that’s the coat that
Harry wore at Potsdam.” [chuckling] And of course, the people who’d
come in there, they’d always ask, “Oh, are these things from the Trumans’
24
house?” you know, and, oh, they’d sell stuff. People were really going for
the stuff if they thought it came from the Trumans’ house. [chuckling]
WILLIAMS: Did you know any of the rectors before your time?
PATRICK: Yeah, I knew Aaron Whitehead. The man that preceded me died after he
had been there only about a year or two. He died of leukemia. He was just
a young fellow, his name was Garnett. And before Garnett was Aaron
Whitehead. And Aaron Whitehead was there when Mr. Truman was . . . I
think Aaron Whitehead went there along about ’39 or ’40, and he was the
rector there until about ’48, I think. He was the rector about eight years,
and I think he would have been rector there when Harry was elected
president, or vice president first and then president, served as president.
WILLIAMS: Did you ever hear stories from him?
PATRICK: No. If you want to get perhaps some stories, I don’t know, you might talk
to some of the Sermons up there. They might be able to give you stories
about the Trumans.
WILLIAMS: I just wondered if you were warned by anybody about, you know, “This is
the Trumans’ parish, and be prepared for it.”
PATRICK: No, nobody ever said anything like that at all. No, not really.
WILLIAMS: And did you know . . . I suppose you’ve met some of the rectors since you
left?
PATRICK: Yes. Oh, I knew . . . I’ve known all of them since I left. I knew, as I say, I
knew Pat Hutton. Pat just died recently. And I knew Harry Lembcke.
25
Harry Lembcke died when he was rector there. After I left, it was Pat
Hutton, and then Harry Lembcke, and then after Harry Lembcke, that’s
when . . . Harry Lembcke was there when Mr. Truman died. I don’t know
who had the service for Mrs. Truman. Well, how long ago did she die?
About five years ago?
WILLIAMS: Eighty-two.
PATRICK: Eighty-two? That would be nine years ago, and I can’t think who was
rector there then.
WILLIAMS: I think it was Hart.
PATRICK: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was Hart.
WILLIAMS: We’ve interviewed him.
PATRICK: Yeah. Mrs. Truman, after she came home, you know, she was quite active
in the altar guild there, and she served regularly in the altar guild there,
setting up the altar.
WILLIAMS: What’s involved in the altar guild?
PATRICK: The altar guild would be the ladies that set up the services, lay out the
vestments, and clean the vessels and set up the altar for services on Sunday
morning. They’re the ones that lay out all the vestments, prepare all the
bread and the wine for the Communion services, and that sort of thing.
That’s what an altar guild member does.
WILLIAMS: Was your wife involved in these things?
PATRICK: My wife was a member of the altar guild, and she was a member of the
26
women’s group there, and she was . . . Yeah, she was quite active in the
church there. I think she taught Sunday school at the time.
WILLIAMS: Did the Trumans go to Sunday school?
PATRICK: No. No, the only thing that Mrs. Truman ever did was just attend services.
She joined the altar guild after I left. I think they were still kind of winding
down from the presidential experience, and that’s when Mrs. Truman began
to become much more active in the women’s organizations at the church.
WILLIAMS: Were there like circles or women’s groups?
PATRICK: Just the women’s auxiliary and, as I say, the altar guild, basically.
WILLIAMS: Did you give any advice to Patric Hutton in the transition?
PATRICK: No. No, not really. [chuckling] No. I think he was quite capable of
handling things, you know. I knew Pat. As a matter of fact, I was the one
that suggested Pat’s name to the vestry when they were looking around,
searching for a rector. Pat was originally from this area. He came to
Independence from Valley Stream, Long Island. He had taken a church
parish up in Valley Stream, which is in Sussex County, Long Island, just
east of Queens. And then he came to Independence, as I say, in late ’55 or
maybe early ’56, after I had left there, and he became rector of the church at
that time.
WILLIAMS: It seems like they asked you to preside at certain events because of your
connection.
PATRICK: That’s right.
27
WILLIAMS: Was there any effort to spread that around to other ministers in town?
PATRICK: No, with the exception of that Roman Catholic chaplain that had been in the
chaplaincy in Company A in the First World War, and I can’t think of his
name. Tinsman, or something like that, his name was.
WILLIAMS: Was there a Truman pew in your church?
PATRICK: No, we don’t have pews marked or rented in the Episcopal church.
Whenever they came, it seems to me they always sat towards the back, on
the south side, as I remember. When they’d come in, that’s where they’d
usually sit, towards the back on the south side. The right-hand, as you
came in.
WILLIAMS: Do you remember any comments about your sermon or the services?
PATRICK: Oh, yeah, sometimes Mr. Truman would say something about that he
enjoyed that sermon. . . or Margaret would say the same thing, you know,
that she had never thought about this or that or something else that I
brought out in the sermon.
WILLIAMS: Did they ever invite you to Washington?
PATRICK: No. As I say, I wasn’t there that long. I know that Mrs. Truman had her
Tuesday bridge club there one time, and one of the members of the Tuesday
bridge club was Adelaide Twyman. And, oh, Mrs. King. I think, Mrs.
Oscar King was a member of that group.
WILLIAMS: Were they members of the parish?
PATRICK: Mrs. King was; Mrs. Twyman was. And as I say, Margaret Story was very
28
well-known to the family. I don’t think she was in the Tuesday bridge club
group, but . . . Oh, and I think another one, Mrs. Harold . . . What was his
mother’s name? She was one of that group, too. Mrs. King was a member
of the church, and as I say, Mrs. Twyman was a member of the church. But
I think there were eight women in that Tuesday bridge club.
WILLIAMS: Who were some of Mrs. Truman’s contemporaries in the altar guild, people
that you could call her friends from church?
PATRICK: Oh, perhaps Mrs. Eyssel, and that’s E-Y-S-S-E-L. Betty?
BETTY PATRICK: What?
PATRICK: Come in, would you please? Can you remember who some of the women
were in the altar guild at Independence that might have known Mrs.
Truman in the altar guild there? Well, Vera Case would have been.
BETTY: Vera Case.
PATRICK: Yeah, Vera Case and Betty Ott. And Mrs. Merritt Case. She still lives in
Independence, and Mrs. James Ott, Betty Ott, she’s still in Independence.
O-T-T.
BETTY: And Marge, but she’s moved to—
PATRICK: Marge who?
BETTY: We stayed at her home recently.
PATRICK: Oh, yeah, Marge Jackson.
BETTY: Marge and Cecil. She’s moved to—
PATRICK: Marge and Cecil. She’s moved to the state of Washington, yeah. Marge
29
Jackson, Mrs. Cecil Jackson. But I would suggest Mrs. Vera Case.
BETTY: Merritt Case.
PATRICK: Mrs. Merritt Case. She would probably be able to help you out a great deal.
BETTY: Oh, and Win Tabor. Not Tabor.
PATRICK: Win Pierce. I don’t know whether Win’s still living.
BETTY: She lives in St. Joe with her daughter.
PATRICK: She’s still alive, huh? The last I knew she was. But yeah, Mrs. . . .
BETTY: Joe.
PATRICK: Joe Pierce, Winifred Pierce.
BETTY: Well, what’s her daughter’s name? Pat?
PATRICK: Pat. I don’t know what her last name is. She married that guy from IBM.
BETTY: Those are the only ones that I remember.
PATRICK: Jane . . . I mean, what’s Eyssel’s daughter? What’s her name? Knox, isn’t
it? Betty?
BETTY: Yeah?
PATRICK: What’s her first name? Janet.
BETTY: Janet.
PATRICK: Janet Knox is another one. You might inquire around at the parish there
and find out about Janet Knox and Vera Case and Betty Ott. And those
would be the ones to probably find the most about, because as I say, Mrs.
Truman became active in the altar guild after I left there.
WILLIAMS: Were there special security precautions when he would attend the church as
30
president?
PATRICK: Oh, yeah, the Secret Service people would be around somewhere.
WILLIAMS: Would they come in ahead of time?
PATRICK: I can’t remember whether they’d go and make a search of the church or not.
I don’t think things were quite that touchy at the time. Of course, that was
after the attack on Mr. Truman by the Puerto Rican nationals, but it seems
to me that it wasn’t probably as touchy as it was until after Kennedy was
assassinated. But it doesn’t seem to me that they would ever make much of
a search of the church, but they would . . . I don’t remember them coming
in and looking around much before he’d come to church.
WILLIAMS: What do you recall about your visit to Research Hospital when he was
there?
PATRICK: Not a great deal. I sat down and talked to Mrs. . . . Mrs. Truman was out in
the waiting room outside, and I was there when he came out of . . . you
know, waited until he came out of the surgery, and sat there and talked with
Mrs. Truman. I can’t even remember whether Margaret was there. I think
she was though. No, I don’t know, this was . . . Margaret must have been
living in New York then, because this was after he was out of the White
House and back in Independence, and I think that’s when she must have
moved to New York at the time.
WILLIAMS: I think so.
PATRICK: So I don’t remember whether she was there when her father had his
31
gallbladder out.
WILLIAMS: Were there any other illnesses that you remember calling on the family,
either at home or in the hospital?
PATRICK: No. The only thing I can remember was his gallbladder surgery, and as I
say, that must have been . . . that must have been in the summer of ’54,
somewhere along in there.
WILLIAMS: I think so. You mentioned earlier seeing a lot of Christmas gifts. Do you
remember anything in particular?
PATRICK: No. No, I don’t remember in particular what those gifts were, but he said,
you know, he wanted to show me his loot, he said, he called it. Books was
one thing that he . . . Of course, he was a real student of history. He loved
history, and I think a lot of times people would give him historical books.
He was quite a . . . very much a student of history.
WILLIAMS: Would you talk about things like that?
PATRICK: Yeah, and a little bit about Missouri history, you know, particularly in the
Civil War. The famous [General] Order Number 11 and things like that,
and the “guerrilla war” that took place in Missouri, things like that we
talked about.
WILLIAMS: Did you ever meet any of his family?
PATRICK: No, I never met his brother. He was still living. I don’t know whether his
mother was still living or not.
WILLIAMS: I think she died in the ’40s.
32
PATRICK: Well, but her . . . what was his name? Vivian was his brother, wasn’t it?
No, I never met Vivian. I guess I met Vivian . . . might have been when he
was . . . at the time Mrs. Wallace died, and I think maybe I met Vivian at
that time, but just in passing is all.
WILLIAMS: Now, was she laid out at the home? You said there was a service at the
home.
PATRICK: Yeah, at the home. But no, it was a closed coffin. In the Episcopal church
we don’t usually go in much for open coffins. Most of the time the coffins
are closed, and in this case it was.
WILLIAMS: But that’s where the service was?
PATRICK: The first part of the service was . . . The first part of the service was at the
house. Well, see, we have two parts in the Episcopal burial service. The
first part is what normally takes place at the church, which is the scriptural
lessons and psalms, scriptural lessons and prayers, very short. Oh, if there
is a eulogy—or not a eulogy—if there’s a sermon, it’s just a homily, very
short. Then, afterwards, you go to the cemetery and then there’s the
interment ceremony, which is where you have some more short prayers and
scriptural lessons, and then the part where you cast earth upon the . . . in the
grave and say, “Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, and dust to dust . . .” and so
on. The final, it’s not more than about five, ten minutes at the cemetery.
And at the house, I don’t think it was more than about fifteen minutes at the
house. So altogether, the service wouldn’t have taken more than about half
33
to three-quarters of an hour. And I forget which funeral home it was. It’s
the one right there on Winner Road, it seems to me, that they had.
WILLIAMS: Carson’s?
PATRICK: Carson. That’s what it was, Carson’s, yes.
WILLIAMS: If there was a service in the house, did that mean there were chairs that
people were sitting in?
PATRICK: Yeah. Some people standing, yeah. Because there wasn’t all that much
room, you know.
WILLIAMS: That was my next question.
PATRICK: There wasn’t all that much room, and so it was just very close friends were
the only ones that were right there. Very close friends and relatives.
WILLIAMS: Do you remember which room that—
PATRICK: It seems to me it was in that . . . it was that room right off of the front
entrance on the left-hand side as you come in, the north side. That’s the
same room where they had the . . . the same room where they had the
Christmas tree and so forth when I went in at Christmas time. It seems to
me that’s where it was.
WILLIAMS: So did more people join the procession after you—
PATRICK: No. No, when we got out to the cemetery there . . . maybe forty or fifty
people out there, and that’s about how many people there were in the house.
WILLIAMS: Were there a lot of flowers?
PATRICK: I can’t remember too many. It’s kind of hard to remember that far back
34
whether there were much in the way of flowers.
WILLIAMS: Could you describe George Wallace for us?
PATRICK: Well, George was really kind of a character, kind of a gruff character. I
don’t know that much. I can’t remember that much about him. As I say, he
was rather a plain-spoken character and kind of rather gruff.
WILLIAMS: Did he attend as much as Mrs. Truman?
PATRICK: No, he hardly attended at all. He was a very poor attender. Maybe once or
twice or . . .
WILLIAMS: Were you ever in their home?
PATRICK: Oh, yes, sure. Yes.
WILLIAMS: Did May, his wife, go to church with him?
PATRICK: No.
WILLIAMS: She goes to the Christian church.
PATRICK: Yeah, I think she was a member of the Christian church. And the other one,
the other brother is . . .
WILLIAMS: Frank.
PATRICK: Frank.
WILLIAMS: And Natalie, his wife.
PATRICK: I think she was the Roman Catholic, wasn’t she? Yeah. And he never
came very often either. Neither one of the men came too often, maybe once
or twice a year. [chuckling]
WILLIAMS: So, as far as describing them, you don’t have much?
35
PATRICK: I don’t remember too much of them.
WILLIAMS: And did you ever meet the third brother who lived in Denver?
PATRICK: No, not that I know, not that I can remember. He probably was back for his
mother’s burial, too, but I just don’t remember meeting him. What was his
name?
WILLIAMS: Fred.
PATRICK: Fred. I probably did meet him, but I can’t remember. He wasn’t around.
WILLIAMS: Did the Trumans send you Christmas cards, gifts, things like that?
PATRICK: They would send me . . . Yeah, I guess I’d get a Christmas card from them,
yeah. Yeah, it’s hard to remember that far back.
WILLIAMS: You said they gave you a bowl when you left?
PATRICK: A bowl, a silver bowl.
WILLIAMS: Is that it over there?
PATRICK: No, I don’t see it now. It must be in the other room. It was a bowl about
that big. It’s like a Revere bowl like that. Well, I’ll get this . . . I want to
show you what I have here. Be right back. [Pause] When I was in
seminary, it was in 1948, and I went into town, into Oconomowoc,
Wisconsin, close to the seminary, and I saw this, the next day after the
election, the Chicago Tribune: “Dewey Defeats Truman.” And so, for
some reason or another, I saved that paper, and I had it in my possession.
So, one time when I was sitting on the back porch, I said, “Mr. Truman,
I’ve got something that I would love to have you sign for me.” And so he
36
said, “Sure.” So the next time I was back, I brought this back with me and I
said, “I’ve got the famous edition of the Chicago Daily Tribune, and I said,
“Would you sign it?” And he said, “Sure.” He said, “What do you want
me to put on there?” And I said, “Well, that was kind of a sad day for
[Colonel Robert] ‘Bertie’ McCormick, wasn’t it?” And he said, “Yeah.”
So he wrote on there, “Too bad for Bertie,” and then “Harry S Truman.” So
you might want to take a picture of that.
WILLIAMS: I’ll bet he got a kick out of that.
PATRICK: You know, you might want to take a picture of that.
WILLIAMS: It’s funny because another museum aide I was talking to the other day, and
she asked if we had a copy of this and I said, “I don’t think so.” And she
said, “Well, I hear they’re worth a lot of money, like $800 or something.”
And autographed, I’m sure they’re worth quite a bit more. That’s great.
And for people who don’t know who McCormick was . . .
PATRICK: [chuckling] Well, people have asked me, “Who’s Bertie?” And I said,
“Well, that’s Bertie McCormick.” Robert McCormick, and his nickname
was Bertie. “Too bad for Bertie.” [chuckling]
WILLIAMS: I think I will take a picture.
STONE: He was the editor or owner of the Tribune?
PATRICK: No, he was the owner and publisher.
STONE: And the publisher of the Tribune.
PATRICK: Yeah, and he was an ultra arch-conservative, and of course hated
37
everything that Roosevelt and Truman ever stood for, and dated back to .
. . They used to say that he was slightly right of . . . What was it they always
said? He was slightly right of McKinley. [chuckling]
WILLIAMS: That’s pretty far right.
PATRICK: Yeah. [chuckling] You know, Bertie McCormick was an “America Firster”
in the Second World War, and he was opposed to the . . . he was an
ultra-isolationist, opposed to the entry of the United States in the European
war. And anti-British, very much anti-British.
WILLIAMS: In the four or so years that you were in Independence, how many times do
you think you were at the house? Just a rough estimate.
PATRICK: Oh, ten, fifteen times, I’d say.
WILLIAMS: I suppose you saw more of them when they retired.
PATRICK: Yes, very much so.
WILLIAMS: What do you think your life would have been like if you hadn’t had that
experience in Independence?
PATRICK: [chuckling] Well, it would be hard to say, really. I don’t know. It would
be hard to say.
WILLIAMS: Any different?
PATRICK: I don’t suppose so. You know, it was certainly an interesting period in my
life to, you know, have been on the scene of something like that.
WILLIAMS: Did they serve you refreshments when you visited?
PATRICK: Oh, yeah. I can’t remember, iced tea or something like that. I believe it
38
was iced tea usually.
WILLIAMS: Would Mrs. Truman usually be there with him?
PATRICK: Oh, yes, always. Always. I never saw them apart.
WILLIAMS: So you wouldn’t sit down with him and visit?
PATRICK: No, no, it was always them together.
WILLIAMS: That’s interesting.
PATRICK: Yeah, I never . . . Anytime I would sit down with Mrs. Truman he was
there, and anytime . . . you know, they were both together always. I never
saw them apart. They were devoted to each other, they really were. And
you could really tell that he was most fond of her, and as I say, he always
called her “the boss.”
WILLIAMS: Do you have any questions, Scott?
SCOTT STONE: No, I don’t.
WILLIAMS: I suppose Mrs. Truman was very devoted to her mother. Did you get that
impression?
PATRICK: Yes, I think so.
WILLIAMS: Was she protective?
PATRICK: Well, that’s hard to say. But as I say, Mrs. Wallace lived in the White
House. She could have very well have put her into a nursing home
somewhere like that. But no, she was in the White House with them, and
she’d come home with them when they’d come back to Independence and
be always right there with them, come back on the train with them.
39
[chuckling]
WILLIAMS: That’s it.
PATRICK: I can tell the train they always came . . . From Washington to St. Louis they
always took the . . . What was the name of that train? It was the B&O, and
they’d always take the same train.
STONE: The Ferdinand Magellan?
PATRICK: No, that wasn’t the name of it. [It was the “National Limited,” I think. And
then on the MoPac one of the Eagles.]
STONE: That was from the ’48 election.
PATRICK: No, that wasn’t . . . You mean the famous “Whistle Stop Campaign”?
STONE: Right.
PATRICK: No, the one they always took was the . . . it seems it was the National
Limited was the name of it.
WILLIAMS: I think that’s right.
PATRICK: Yeah, the National Limited. And then they’d take one of the Eagles from
St. Louis to Independence, the Missouri Pacific Eagle.
STONE: Do you want another tape on?
WILLIAMS: I don’t think so.
PATRICK: No, that’s fine. I don’t have that much more information, I’m sure.
WILLIAMS: Is there any more?
PATRICK: No, I can’t think of anything.
WILLIAMS: Well, I’ve run out of questions. Thank you.
40
PATRICK: Certainly.
WILLIAMS: It was fun.
PATRICK: How long have you been at the library? Or are you at the home?
WILLIAMS: We’re at the home.
PATRICK: At the home. How long have you been at the home?
WILLIAMS: Scott?
STONE: Well, I started working there . . . I worked there for two summers during
college, and I’ve been back almost a year now since last August.
PATRICK: And how long have you been there?
WILLIAMS: Well, I was there, actually, the first summer in ’84 as an intern, and was an
interpreter for a few summers.
PATRICK: Interpreter for whom?
WILLIAMS: That’s what we call the people that take people on tours.
PATRICK: Oh, I see. I thought maybe you had to translate for foreign visitors or
something.
WILLIAMS: No. A guide, I guess.
PATRICK: A guide. A docent.
STONE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: This summer I’m a historian and I’m doing this project.
PATRICK: What is the project basically? It’s just for the library, or for the home?
WILLIAMS: For the home. People who had contact with the family in a nonpolitical
sense, to give us a better idea of what went on in the house.
41
PATRICK: It seems to me, there again, it seems to me that when they’d have Christmas
dinner or something like that, that would be something Mrs. Truman would
prepare. I don’t think they had any cook or anything there. It seems to me
that all the meals Mrs. Truman prepared. I remember when they had . . .
they interviewed them when . . . oh, Edward R. Murrow interviewed them
and they were interviewed at the house, as I remember.
WILLIAMS: Would you like to hold this?
PATRICK: Yeah. I don’t know whether you can pick up the signature or not and the
little thing on it. [sound of photograph being taken]
WILLIAMS: No more film.
PATRICK: That’s it?
STONE: Good timing.
END OF INTERVIEW

Photograph of David Patrick holding an autographed copy of the famous Chicago Daily Tribune newspaper reporting “Dewey Defeats Truman” in the election of 1948. HSTR photo.

NPS