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U.S. Grant History Chat, Episode 8:Marvin-Alonzo Greer
Transcript
- Okay, hello everybody? This is Nick Sacco park ranger at Ulysses S Grant National Historic Site in St. Louis, Missouri. And this is the U.S. Grant History chat. This is episode number eight, and today it is my distinct pleasure to be speaking with Marvin Alonzo Greer, who is an excellent historian, living historian, who also works for the Missouri Historical Society at the Soldiers Memorial in downtown St. Louis. And so, I wanted to have Marvin on the program today because he's been very involved with living history for a long time. Several years ago, he actually portrayed, Grant's enslaved man William Jones for a living history program we did here at the park. He also helped us with a, a civil war to civil rights living history program that we did, a couple of years ago as well. So to kick things off here with Marvin, I wanted to hear a little bit about just your, what prompted you initially to get into history? What prompted you to study more, of the civil war era and particularly you're one of the best living historians I've ever seen. And I'm just really curious about that side of your career as well.
- So I've always been interested in history since I was a young child. My grandmother, was a amazing storyteller and, she and my grandfather lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and they would drive from Pittsburgh to Pasadena, California, where I lived. And they would drive us across the country, across the Southwest, stopping at different national park sites and museums throughout the country, along the Southwest then up through, along the Eastern coast, till we get to got back to Pittsburgh, they do this every summer. And a lot, my grandfather drove the entire way and my grandmother talked to us the entire way, about history and family history. And so I just became really passionate about history and then when I got to middle school, he did a civil war project, where we stood at the American Civil War. And we put on a little mock battle of Gettysburg reenactment for our school and it was scripted and afterwards we will during this kind of the prep for this mock battle, we watched glory and Gettysburg. So afterwards my mom said people probably did this as a hobby or get paid for it. You should like look into it. This is like the infancy of the internet. So a lot of groups weren't online, but I was able to find a reenacting unit in in Rhode Island. There was an African-American reenacting unit that portrayed the 54th Massachusetts, obviously famed after the movie glory. And, afterwards they put me in contact with a group that happened to be in Atlanta, where I lived at the time. And, so I got into that, I got into the reenacting sphere and as I grew and got older, I found living history, after a while, volunteering at museums and historical sites, I was introduced to Freeman Tilden's, book on interpreting your history, which is still like the gold standard even though it's over 50 years old now. But, I think that just shows the power of Tilden's work, that it stands the test of time. And so that's really how I got into the field of living history. I had my first professional museum job when I was in college. I worked at Robert C. Williams International Museum of Papermaking, which is at Georgia tech. And then I proceeded to go on to the Atlanta History Center, in Atlanta where I really cut my teeth and practice and honed my interpretive skills.
- Sure, wonderful and say how long have you been at the Soldiers Memorial?
- I, this is I'm going here's three right now at Soldier's Memorial. I was the first, kind of public basic staff person hired for Soldiers Memorial and I'm the education of visitor experience lead. So that means I'm in charge of all the interpretive programs, all public programs, just anything that's guest facing, that is what I, that's what I'm in charge of.
- Excellent, excellent and I know since you've been here in St. Louis and I'm sure much longer than that, you've done a lot of research on, United States Colored Troops Regiments during the American Civil War. And, some of our viewers here may not be too familiar with Benton Barracks which would have been where Fairground Park is in North St. Louis. And I know you've been doing some research and some public programming on Benton Barracks and I'd love to hear a little bit about your research endeavors and perhaps a few insights that you've taken away from your research on Benton Barracks.
- All right, so being, I would say being a coastal kid, being from California originally and growing up, in Atlanta-
- Sure.
- And then living in Virginia, it blinds you to what's happening in the Midwest. It's because like the Midwest has been described, it strapped a spot first fly over States-
- Why?
- But one of the I think the best it has ever happened to me is moving here to St. Louis because it's exposed me to this wide swath of history that only people locally might know about and some people even locally don't even know about. And Benton Barracks is one of those hidden jewels. Benton barracks, for those of you who do not know was one of the largest training grounds, in the country training union soldiers. And one of the largest training grounds training African-American soldiers, in the country, as well as probably the largest training ground West of the Mississippi training federal soldiers, and it trained U.S. volunteers. And by that we mean there was already a military base here in St. Louis, at Jefferson Barracks, but that's mainly trained and housed U.S. regular forces, meaning those soldiers were already enlisted in the U.S. army while Benton barracks was for volunteers, men who were, who enlisted, for the war, but that was not that they were not career military soldiers. That being said, it primarily initially housed white soldiers. It was where the first emancipation proclamation of the war was issued with General Fremont.
- All right.
- His headquarters was there, that will obviously later rescinded, Sherman was stationed there for a time, old age, the war Eagle solved, assault, came here to Benton barracks. So Benton Barracks has an amazing history. Actually it was also the staging ground for Albert Cashier, one of the first transgender soldiers of the Civil War that we know about.
- Right.
- And so there's this whole amazing history of Benton Barracks prior to African-American soldiers being recruited. That being said once the emancipation proclamation goes into effect and African-Americans will just start being recruited, throughout the country, Missouri was very hesitant to recruit African-American soldiers. But St Louis was still the staging ground for that, for some of that recruitment. The first unit to be recruited at Benton barracks and kind of raised partially raised there was the first Iowa Colored Troops, and they were later renamed the 60th United States Colored Troops for USC team. And we have an amazing letter in our collection at the Missouri Historical Society. So we definitely suggest you guys go on and look that up when you guys have a chance, but it's from a white soldier detailing an incident that took place around thanksgiving of 1863. And, he talks about, the first Iowa Colored Troops coming into the chapel and being seated alongside white soldiers. And it talks about how he and the other soldiers weather-wise holders got up and stormed out because they would refuse to be seated next to black soldiers. And so this amazing, it's amazing to hear that two groups of soldiers from two different regiment are fighting for the same cause under the same flag and for the same country that causes is it different cause, one is fighting to preserve the union and the other is fighting to preserve the union and to end slavery. So how this union was even fractured from within was something that we can understand better for understanding Benton Barracks. Benton Barracks housed, probably one of the most famous Civil War African-American soldiers from the Midwest Spottswood Rice. Spottswood Rice, served in the 67th United States Colored Troops. And unfortunately, no photograph that exists of him today, but he pinned from Benton Barracks, he pins two beautiful letters, one to his daughters, Caroline and Mary saying he's coming to rescue them. And the other two, his daughters enslaver, a woman named Kaitty Digs and he permits calls or anything, but a child of God. He tells her that, hold on to my but the longer you keep my children from me the longer you'll have to burn in hell and the quicker you'll get there. And Spottswood Rice goes on to be a preacher African-American civil war. He found numerous churches one is still standing in a functioning church in Cape Gerardo. He was an active member of the church of the African Methodist Episcopal church here in St. Louis and across the United States. And he builds churches from Missouri all the way out to Colorado and everywhere in between his wife Arry, his first wife, Arry Rice is buried here in St. Louis at Greenwood cemetery, historically Black Cemetery. Here in St. Louis, if you're interested, I would definitely say get active in these Greenwood Cemetery project they're doing a lot of great work out there. Dred Scott's wife is buried there as well. And a lot of other veterans from the Civil War in different, and various other Wars were buried there. And then just the, the history of Benton Barracks, after the African-American regiments that were raised there, I've tracked down at least of seven black regiments that were raised there. Another one or two that were at the station there at one point in time. But understanding, Benton Barracks and understanding North city and St Louis' role in abolition in the Civil War is central to understanding where we are today as individuals and it helps place St. Louis, as really one of the most pivotal places for the story of African-American domains of patient and liberation in our entire country.
- Absolutely, I fully agree 100% and the Spottswood Rice letters that you've mentioned particularly the one to the former enslaver as a great primary source to utilize in a classroom setting to really kind of get a good perspective from an formerly enslaved person viewing, sort of what the future is gonna look like in the United States so that's really cool. And there was some UFCT troops in Benton Barracks who later went on to help found Lincoln university in Jefferson city, right?
- Yes, so the 62nd and 65th, USCTS, oh, sorry, 62nd and 67th USCTS, they pulled their money together after the war. And again, these are men who initially are paid, only $7 a month as soldiers because when they initially enlisted, they were promised $13 a month and they were told, now they'd only be paid $10 a month which is labor's wages and $3 that would be deducted for uniforms and equipment. So these men are only making $7 a month of income, but yet they still pull that money together, even after equal pay and back pay is allocated to them who's been pooled their money together. They could have easily gone off and bought huge piece of property that could have been nice clothing. They could have invested in themselves, but they didn't, they wanted to pay it forward. and they did this because their unit commanders and many of the men in their unit valued education and they stressed literacy. There was a rule in the 62nd United States Colored Troops that if you were gonna be a non-commissioned officer or an NCO, you had to know how to read and write, and you had to teach others how to read and write. If you opted, if you opted not to teach others to kind of pay it forward, to teach others how to read and write, then you would be demoted in the ranks. And so this made education a huge part of those regiments. And so after the war these men pulled their resources together and well, raise a couple thousand dollars between the men and their officers and some of their white allies and free African American allies. And they found Lincoln Institute, which is now Lincoln university in Jefferson city, which still stands, it stands today. And it's the only historically black college and university we're really only in university or in the country that was founded by African-Americans Civil War veterans.
- Wow an incredible story, that's really fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. And then finally, just to wrap up our interview here, I think we have a lot of people in this moment now who are probably anxious to learn more about the civil war era, I'm not talking necessarily at that battles, but you know, the politics of the Civil War, slavery, the reconstruction era. So what are some titles that you've sort of relied on in the past and even today to help inform your scholarship and your approach to interpreting Civil War history?
- So for all, as a as a civil war public historian there is a whole, I think there's a whole host of books I could recommend from people who just kinda want to tip their toe in people who wanna dive in. So for people who just kind of wanna kind of get a little bit of background knowledge may not want to go as deep as you and I have gone back-
- Sure.
- In some of our scholarship, I would recommend faces of the civil war. I will African-American basis of the Civil War, by Ron Coddington and he details out, he has really great, he has photographs and he tells out some kind of short little biographies of different individuals from his African-American photograph collection or various collections throughout the country of detailing stories of African Americans and Civil War, and quite a few Missourians who were enslaved, who fought for their freedom and joined the union army are listed in there, including a man named Octavius McFarland. So it definitely highlight that book, "African-American Basis of the Civil War" by Ron Coddington. When it comes to reconstruction, I think that's probably one of the most important, periods of American history, I would say even more important than American Civil War. The American civil war details as kind of the military, is really a military story and sets the stage for reconstruction, reconstruction is why that stuff is why that war mattered. And so, for that, there's a book called, "Being In the Storm So Long". It's a kind of a thick book. And, but it's a really great book for, it's an older book. But also anything by, what's the man's name like he's, Eric, Foner sorry-
- Eric Foner, yeah.
- Erick Foner's book on reconstruction read that like that is the Bible when it comes to reconstruction. Eric Foner is an amazing storyteller and he has a number of books, but obvious books specifically on, I think it's called just reconstruction, is definitely is a must read. If you haven't read it, you're not living. And, that might just be me as a bit as a public historian, a history nerd. So, but I would say Eric Foner's book, as more of a kind of contemporary history, but, there's another book it's older, but again, a hold of the test of time as a lot of great primary sources, a lot of great words from the enslaved community it's called "The Slave Community". And, it lists if it really covers the wide swath of what African-American culture and life was like, under enslavement from the 18th century through the 19th century, and it details religion and music and just cooking and culture. But for primary sources, and what and kind of getting the, the words of enslaved individuals, the life and times of William Grimes, a runaway slave, although it's not Missouri specific, William Grimes was from Maryland and he liberates himself and he writes a book after he makes his way to freedom. And he is, he's living in destitute, and his words are so powerful, so powerful. I would not recommend, that book I would say I would recommend for even, for like high schoolers and middle school. There's another book that I would recommend for adults even though it's a small book. "Incidents In the Life of a Slave Girl", I would not recommend that for students, maybe college students, but it's by Harriet Jacobs, thank you. And if you're looking for a woman's perspective on what the Civil War meant or sorry not what the Civil War meant, what slavery meant and what slavery was like and how enslaved women had to resist, that is an excellent book. And then a, another book by Elizabeth no, it was with Keckley by Susie King Taylor is a black woman's civil war memoirs, and she was the, she's the only African-American woman to write a civil war memoir and she details what life was like for her in enslavement as well as once she gets free and she joined, she's a nurse and a teacher for African-American regiment, the 33rd colored troops. And especially since this year we're highlighting not only the anniversaries of reconstruction, we're also highlighting the 100 anniversary of women's suffrage and so really focusing on African-American women's voices, it's very important because it's even though the suffrage more updates back to the American revolution is really getting these women of this Civil War generation that really, help mobilize and galvanize and push things forward, as well as African-American women's voices are largely left out of this narrative of women's suffrage and it should not be because they were huge movers and shakers when it came to the suffrage movement. So general truth was a long time suffragist and advocate and as well as Harriet Tubman. So understanding the American Civil War and understanding African-American perspectives is key to understanding where we are today in American history.
- Fantastic, there's really great book recommendations there and I also agree about African-American women in the suffrage movement too. Frances Ellen Watkins Harper is another really, really powerful place in these discussions too. So some really great recommendations for people to get started with and to learn more about the politics of the Civil War era. So I wanna thank Marvin Alonzo Greer for being with us today. If we wanna learn more about the Soldiers Memorial or what you're up to, how can we find you?
- Ah, excellent question. So you can, you can follow us on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook. It's @soldiersstlouis and you can find us online at morehistory.org\memorial, and we're soldier's at Memorial Military Museum we just opened again for the public on Saturday, just in time for June team. So we had a pretty nice turnout. It was, we're doing lots of social distancing there and you can do time you can sign up ahead of time or when you come in person, but we're doing a time re ticketing. So we also have every other Wednesday, the first and second sorry the first and third Wednesday of the month. We have our online digital challenge chats at noon, where where guests can still engage with us. Nick, you were our speaker last week for-
- Fine.
- I'm talking about our grant and reconstruction and what reconstruction meant. And then we have another one coming up, in next week about the 4th of July and what that means to the people in the Midwest and how that was celebrated historically. So please join us at Soldiers Memorial and we'd love to see you.
- Fantastic, okay, thank you, Marvin. Have a great day, thank you so much.
- Thank you, Nick.
Description
Historian Marvin-Alonzo Greer joined Ranger Nick to discuss his work at the Soldiers Memorial Military Museum, the experiences of African American soldiers who were stationed in St. Louis during the Civil War, and his favorite books about the Civil War era.
Duration
21 minutes, 56 seconds
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